The idea for this week's Coin Dealer Ethics discussion was sent in by Sandy B. in Corpus Christi, Texas. She wrote:
Hi,
I'd very much like to learn ways of handling coin dealers who try to scam female customers, especially women who are just starting a coin collection.Thank you,
Sandi B.
Corpus Christi, Texas
Sandy's message reminded me of a scene I witnessed at one of those local coin shows in Las Vegas, Nevada, run by Bick International. It was the last Bick show I ever went to, because I ended up getting thrown out! The scenario below probably won't be of much help to Sandi and her efforts to gain advice on how women should handle coin dealers, but I'll have an article written next week in response to her question.
Here's this week's scenario:
I was standing at the table of the only coin dealer at the show who had any ancient coins in pick boxes, a wonderfully friendly fellow by the name of Roy Comnick (of Comnick's Coins in Prescott Valley, AZ.) An elderly lady, probably at least 80 years old, came up to the table of the dealer next to us (whose name I don't know.) This dealer had a prominent sign that said BUYING COINS.
The elderly lady, (who we'll call "Agnes,") was carrying a good-sized jar of mixed U.S. coinage, mostly pre-1850 silver and copper coins such as large cents, half cents, etc. She asked the dealer with the BUYING sign if he would look at her coins and tell her how much they were worth.
The dealer produced a felt tray and asked the lady to pour her jar of coins onto the tray, which she did. I could see the Bust Dollars and Half Dollars, high grade Large Cents, and a scattering of smaller silver coins that I couldn't quite make out. The dealer got out his loupe and looked at a few of the coins closely and asked the lady where she got them as he examined them. She said they belonged to her father and that she had run across them while going through some old family trunks in preparation for selling her house. She said she brought them to the coin show to get an appraisal and sell them since none of her children had any interest in them. The dealer (who evidently wasn't listening) asked her if she wanted to sell them, and she replied, "That's why I'm here."
While all of this is going on, I stood there watching with some interest. I've seen what happens when people bring in their jars, bottles and boxes of old coins, and I was waiting to see if this lady would be treated any differently. We weren't dealing with Wheat Pennies and worn out Mercury Dimes here! This was obviously auction-quality material that needed more than just a quick 3 minute assessment before counting up the face value and buying the silver at bullion spot price.
After 3 or 4 minutes, the dealer made a sort of grumbling sound and said that her coins weren't exactly in mint state and that copper isn't a precious metal, but "how much do you want for them?" The lady replied that she didn't know; she had brought them in to have them appraised because she didn't know anything about coins. The dealer responded that he didn't have time at this busy show (it was actually quite dead) to do full appraisals for free, but if she wanted to sell them to name a price and he'd take it or leave it.
The lady seemed a little uncertain here, and began rounding up her coins to put them back in her jar when the dealer spoke up again, "Lady, your coins are not in mint state grade. You can take them around to every table here, and nobody is going to pay you more than I will, assuming they're even buying. Do you see any other BUYING COINS signs in here? Save yourself the time and trouble and just name a price. I'm having a good show; I'll probably pay what you ask."
It's worth pointing out here that her coins were likely worth thousands of dollars each. This was one of the most remarkable rip-offs I had ever witnessed, and my heart starting pumping faster and my palms were getting damp as I saw where this was going.
The little old lady looked up hopefully into the dealer's face, and tremulously asked, "Do you think they're worth as much as a thousand dollars? I'd probably take that, they're nothing to me, I didn't even know I had them until last month."
I saw the coin dealer's pupils briefly dilate, and old poker-playing tell that lets you know your opponent has just made a BIG hand. He knew he was getting a huge gift, and as my blood starting rushing faster through my veins, in response to the outrage I was feeling, the coin dealer said, "Lady, a thousand dollars is a lot of money for these coins. Why don't I give you $700 in cash and we'll call it a deal." He was a masterful pro at this rip-off business, and already had the cash out of his pocket, counting off the hundreds while the lady watched uncertainly.
This was the point at which I finally lost it. I said to the lady (who knew I had been standing there watching the whole time,) "Ma'am, your coins are worth several thousand dollars EACH probably. Don't take his offer! Take them around and get some other offers first!" I would have said more, but the dealer had practically jumped across his table and gotten in my face and said, "This is none of your business. Get out of here." Then, turning to the lady, this dealer (who had never seen me before in his life) said, "I know this woman, she's a real shark. She hates to see anybody else make a sale. I'll give you the thousand dollars for your old coins, but that's a GIFT, take it or leave it now."
I told the lady, "Leave it! Go get more offers! Your coins are EARLY BUST DOLLARS, those are very valuable coins!" At this point, the coin dealer shouted for the bourse chairman, for security, and for the police, all in one long shout. Heads everywhere turned our direction, and several people in police or security uniforms came running from everywhere at once.
The coin dealer pointed at me and demanded that they throw me out. He said that I was interfering with his business and intimidating his customers. One of the security guards reached behind his belt and produced a set of handcuffs, and I got the point. By this time, a man that I presume was the bourse chairman came running over and rather anti-climatically told me to leave the show and that I wasn't welcome there again. I protested that this dealer was about to steal from this woman, but by then a security guard had me by the arm and was hustling me toward the exit, a little more forcefully than strictly necessary since I wasn't struggling (just shouting) and I had bruises on my arm the next day.
I do not know whether that lady sold her coins to that charlatan or not. I tried to find out who he was after the show, by calling the bourse chairman's office and enquiring about who was in that spot, but I didn't have the booth number and I hadn't bothered to pick up one of their flimsy little show programs.
There are two sides to this debate, regarding the actions I took that day. One side says that I was right to try to warn the lady (although I could have perhaps been more discreet or handled it differently once I saw the value of her coins.) The other side says that I had absolutely no right at all to say a single word; the transaction was none of my business and it was wrong of me to interfere.
What do you think? Should I have spoken up? What would you have done? Share your thoughts via the comments link below and next week we'll have a look at your responses.
Follow-Up - You can read the follow-up to this column, where we look at some of the readers' responses about the elderly lady and her coins.
Comments
I think there’s no question that you should have spoken up. This person was basically stealing from the woman, and you had a moral and ethical obligation to help her, in my opinion.
You did the right thing without a doubt. People need to learn or be educated about how to have their coins apparised before they sell.
You where right. I womder if I could be a exact copy of that women. I sold a large bag of coins last month and have my doubts. It included buffalo nickles and mercury dimes and half dollars. I have more including v nickles and don’t know if I should go back to the same person.
Basically, you should have knocked the “dealer” out. If you are going to get thrown out of somewhere, might as well take a bad guy with you!
There should be a special place in Hell for people like that dealer. The only thing you may have done wrong was to not say something to the woman much sooner. Before she ever named a price, you might have let her know that several of her coins were worth over a thousand dollars each. That may have kept her from making an offer that was so low as to be ridiculous. Like many of the dealers at local shows, the dealer in question was a low life that would take advantage of an 80-year old woman. He would probably know down his own mother for a few bucks. Scum of the earth!
That story is incredible. The actions of the bourse chairman and security guards are also completely reprehensible.
You did the right, and morally correct, thing. Unfortunately that dealer didn’t learn anything from his transgressions and is out there right now ripping other people off.
Well, I don’t agree that you should have been thrown out. But I also don’t think you should have interfered either.
Think about it, aren’t we all looking for a good deal so we can make a profit and/or add to our collection? I seem to remember another ethical situation where someone was picking through a box and found some real deals at .10 each or 12 for $1. But it wasn’t ethical to inform THAT coin seller he had coins more valuable than he had them priced.
So why is this any different? She named her price, and like any good business man he haggled. Are you saying you wouldn’t haggle, even though it was a good deal? Of course you would.
She stated she had checked with her family, and no one was interested.
She just wanted to make some money and so did the coin dealer. If she was serious about making money from those coins she should have done some research before she set foot in the show.
People will take advantage of you if you LET them.
Don’t be foolish, you wouldn’t sell your car without first finding out what it’s worth? And would you go to a car dealer to find its worth?
Only if you want to get taken advantage of.
Good for you!
That snake oil salesman will have special treatment with Bill Z. Bub when it’s all said and done. Any decent person would let the poor woman know that she had a treasure chest. He could’ve bought them at regular prices and still made a mint at auction.
i agree i would of spoke up also, especially after i had a dealer try to steal a coin from me once by having someone else look at it and other coins i had, his only problem all my cases have my name engaved in them
I would have Lean over and said to the nice little old lady and said
”Grandma, Could we talk about this for a minuet before WE sell them. I know they are worth much more then that.”
Jeffrey Gelman
God bless U
YOU DID THE RIGHT THING!! AS evidenced by the majority of the responders. Except ACR who sounds like he’s realted to the dealer you confronted.
There is a GREAT difference between making a “good deal” and blatantly, deliberately taking advantage of someone.
I only wish you had been carrying mace!!
I totally agree with what you attempted to do. I have dealt only with reputable coin brokers. I believe an honest coin dealer will offer to pay you 70% of what your coins are worth as he also needs to make a small profit when he/she resells them. I think that is a fair deal, but not what that dealer had attempted to do.
You acted in best interest of a defenseless older lady, probably a widow. You acted as a saint. You will be rewarded by God for your actions.
And our community wonders aloud why local and state governments really don’t listen to us as far as taxing sales at coinshows and treating dealers like pawnbrokers
You were absolutely right. If the Woman had been knowledegable in coins, that would have been different. I have just started collecting coins, and I know enough to get a few opinions or appraisals on a coin, before selling. This Woman did not, and it would have been totally unethical (I feel) for that dealer to take advantage like he was trying to do. She should have received a fair price for her coins, and he still could have made a profit.
I would have done the same as you tried to do. A transaction that is not fair for both is greed taking advantage of someone. You reap what you sow, the dealer will soon be taken advantage of himself and loose more than whatever gain he made. Funny how things come back around to bite you in the ass when you do wrong, uh?
Keep up the work, I applaude your ethics.
A few weeks ago (see: “Dealer Pick Boxes”) I commented about how a “deal is a deal”; the dealer named his price and you want to pay it. Then you found a very valuable Flying Eagle cent. Then the dealer wanted to change “how the game is played.“
Is this scenario any different? The old lady named a price and the dealer wanted to pay it.
Is it any different than “cherry picking” a dealer’s inventory for valuable die varieties? The dealer listed a price and he wanted to pay it.
Should we use a different “yardstick” for different people? One “yardstick” for a part-time dealer; a different one for a full-time professional dealer; another for a knowledgeable collector; a different one for a new collector and special one for little old ladies? If so, then we need to define what the rules are. Additionally, I really don’t know how you would do that, much less enforce the rules.
Personally, I would have gotten involved too. There is just something in my heart that does not allow me to sit and watch someone get taken advantage of for that amount of money. If it was my mother trying to get some money to pay for her medicines, I would hope and pray that somebody would watch out for her.
The “sharks” in this trade will always be around. If it’s a dealer trying to hood-wink you into sorting his 5,000 coin bags of cents for the valuable ones, or a dealer taking advantage of a little old lady, they will always be there. Maybe if we have the courage to stand up to them, their businesses will suffer and they will fold up shop. Unfortunately, another shark will take his place and we will have to do it all over again.
You did the right thing in trying to warn her. I can understand the argument that she named her price and he haggled, but he was definitely applying pressure. And if he really was going to pay her more than anyone else, he should have been willing to let her get other appraisals. Many business transactions have a cooling off period that allows someone to cancel a deal within a few days to avoid these kind of pressure tactics. This woman did not have that option. Her only chance to not get ripped off was your interference. You absolutely did the right thing!!!
You absolutely did the right thing, you gave that dealer plenty of oppourtunities to offer a fair price, when you saw he was trying to pressure the little old lady into taking a huge loss, you spoke up instead of standing by while she was taken advantage of. That dealer should have been ejected, not you!
Susan,
The old lady brought the coins in to have them appraised. Her first inquiry was “if he would look at her coins and tell her how much they were worth.” The dealer then switched her from appraisal to selling. That made his intentions clear.
I think you, observing what was going down, could have perhaps salvaged the situation by offering to do the appraisal. You are qualified to do so I believe. The dealer would have been in a weaker position to complain about you since he had refused to appraise. You might have have had the opportunity to alert the old lady as to the real value of her collection away from the dealer. Shame, she probably could have used the money.
Your heart was in the right place to try and stop such a blatant rip-off but your tactics were inappropriate and probably not effective. You got your self in trouble and the rat dealer probably got the coins for a song anyway.
You were absolutely right in what you did. And the dealer should have been the one to be thrown out. He will eventually get his. Hopefully the lady took your advice. Perhaps advice to others who have coins to sell should be offered in some venue, but little old ladies don’t usually research value before selling. Thanks for your honesty. BW
YOU DID GOOD’ YOU PROBABLY STOP THAT DEALER FROM HITING A JACPOT WITH THAT SWEET OLD LADY.BECAUSE HE WAS MORE INTERESTED IN BUYING THE COINS AND NOT IN WHAT THE OLD LADY WANTED TO KNOW.{THE PRICE)
If she was carrying a jar,perhaps the security chaps that were so keen to oust u should have warned her,to be xtra careful just goes to show you wonder who u can trust. Great that u tried to help the poor old lovy. I made a discovery on a us10cent coin & don’t know where to get an honest opinion on it, it is an error? what and who do u suggest I go to or impart the info to? I don’t want to land up like the other poor ol dear- I am serious and in earnest.Please adviseThanx Anita
I hope that this comment goes through. My last one did not. I only wanted to comment on an honest dealer that I found in Rockford Il I fell that our business was done the way an honest sale should go
I’m a female dealer – and 99% of my customers are in *exactly* the same position as the woman you tried to save from the thief… and that’s exactly what he is – a thief. Personally, I treat each of my customers (even the wheat penny & worn mercury dime people) the same way i’d want a dealer to treat my elderly grandmother. After all, I not only have to do business in my town for many years to come – I have to look in the mirror in the morning.
You did the right thing. You should have sent somebody else in to the show to get his dealer #. Also, the show promoters should have taken a dim view of his activity. Any promoter who doesn’t take an interest in the ethics of their dealers needs to be viewed with a jaundiced eye.
You were absolutely correct to speak up. That man was ripping that poor lady off. Hopefully she took your advise and got other appraisers to look at her coins.
Thanks for speaking up.
Sandi B.
What you did was correct. And to those referring to the previous question on this site about the find in a bin full of coins….well, if you need it explained.
A dealer is a business person. They are responsible for the knowledge and to represent themselves accordingly. By offering for sale they demonstrate their knowledge. By showing them their knowledge is poor, oh well, they will live and learn…that is an expense of doing business. Very similar to mispriced merchandise in a retail store…by law, the store must honor the price.
As for the little old lady, with no knowledge and looking to gain a little from an expert…share your knowledge…that conversation about the history and identification of coins is what our hobby is about. The value is a market issue and should be considered as close to possible an open market. The dealer should have said he did not have time and show her a red book not pressure her into a number he clearly thought she would underestimate.
The actions of the dealer were to take clear advantage of someone with less knowledge. Not get a good deal because someone with knowledge did not do their job and double check their pricing.
Thank you for protecting someone who needed, and asked for, a little help.
You were right in your intentions, but in a no-win situation. The guy is a crook, took advantage of the elderly lady, and is probably an “ANA’ member, who just paid his lifetime dues, with the fortune he just made. The other “ANA” members are responsible for getting you out of there and protecting their own (kind of like a bad cop scenerio). You should have gotten more information on this individual, and asked this question of the “ANA”. Reporting their response would have been interesting, had they bothered to respond at all (or at least within a six month period). I have not found many decent reputable dealers (whom all proudly display that
membership, as if it were a badge of
dignity). It has never policed itself, let alone dealers, that keep throwing money at them.
The man is a thief. He could be facing criminal charges. He commited a fraud. In a venue reseverd for business. I’m not an attorney, i googled theft by deception, according to your statment that there were thousands of dollars worth of coins that you could observe, just from where you were standing is proof enough it sounds like grand larcany. There are rcords i’m sure of what dealers were where in this venue, and if that dealer got the old woman to part with her valuable goods, then the first contactee would be the state of NV. attorney generals office by the web. There was a crime that needed to be reported. If there was a crime commited, their office would take it from there. No harm, no foul. If i remember correctly you didn’t stay long enough to witness a sale. So whether or not she actually sold her coins to this dealer is unknown? Just my non legal opinion on this story.
I have the same problem with a coin dealer. He wants my good coins for little to nothing,Im quite upset that this happens every day in this country,and hell yes you not only right,but an oblgation to step in. I mean it was a sell ,but this coin dealer should never be allowed to sell or buy coins again,what a jerk!!!
That so called dealer is no different than the people that take advantage of others that has suffered through a hurricane or an earthquake. You did the right thing but I hope and pray she decided not to do business with him.
I don’t think either you or the dealer were in the wrong. It was just unfortunate for him (hopefully) that you were there.
The dealer did not appraise the coins or make the initial offer, he let the elderly woman make the first move, and merely counter offered. There are plenty of books in the library/places online where the lady could have checked the values of the coins for herself before hazarding a guess.
Of course, the dealer was sly about the whole operation, but who isn’t out to make a buck?
You were definitely in the right to alert the elderly woman though. It just wasn’t to the dealer’s best interest, and it’s unfortunate that you were thrown out just for having a conversation with the lady.
The problem with identifying this dealer as a thief is that collectibles are all about perceived value. This lady said herself that they were “nothing” to her, so really 700-1000 bucks would be a great deal as she saw it. (no doubt tens of thousands would be even better).
Hopefully the woman saw how easily the dealer went up to 1000 and took your advice to get a real appraisal.
This is an excellent example in general, because it happens quite frequently (not just in the coin world)and it raises some complex issues. Many of these have already been dealt with by excellent previous posts.
In the specific example, there is no doubt that you were justified to be outraged. Shame on him for his lies about the value of the coins; as well as the poor way he handled discussing it with you.
But also shame on her family for not taking an interest in the matter.
In the more general situation, this is almost a no win situation for the dealer. No matter how much he pays “a sweet little old lady” people will suspect that he took advantage of her.
Just to illustrate how complex this is, how do you value the coins? Red book, blue book, gray sheet….. I collected for over ten years before I even heard of blue book. And I still don’t completely understand the gray sheet; regularly I attend auctions where coins are sold for a fraction of gray sheet.
And as for grading, lol… I gotta stop rambling, but you get the point.
Thanks for a very thought provoking article.
You did the right thing. What that dealer did was unethical. The core of the reason it was is that the lady did, indeed, ask for an appraisal. His saying he didn’t have time to do a detailed appraisal is not an ethical out for him. It was clear to you at a distance that even a cursory one would have provided a far greater value. He could have estimated the value low, figuring on missing some cleanings and things like that; provided that to her with an offer to buy below that because he would have to market the coins. That would have been fair and just and decent business practices.
A shame you cannot identify the dealer. I’d love to set him up. Take a cigar box full of valuable raw coins for a similar appraisal, videotaping the affair, not accepting his offer, and putting the clip on youtube.
My apologies for misreading the venue as NV. When this took place in Prescott AZ.?
Regardless of the location, people who sell gasoline for a living aren’t allowed to gouge people. No … when you do business with the publics trust involved. You have an obligation to deal fairly. If this continues, there will be regulations put in place making it harder on every body that would like to make a nice living doing this, or even as a side money maker. If the hobby can’t or wont police it self, then the law makers will step in and do it eventually. Why let a few ruin it for the many of us who enjoy it the way it is now. Gives mom & pop owners a chance.
You did the right thing. The dealer did give her an appraisal! He LIED about their value. In my book that’s FRAUD.
Thank you. I am researching and trying to sell some coins myself and do not know a lot. I would not have hesitated to speak out myself had I seen a situation like that and have often done so. It is shameful to say the least that these rip off artists profit from anyone is this way. Hopefully she had second thoughts.
Good for you! I am with anxiety looking to sell my coins to help save my house from foreclosure and I am in fear of this very thing. I got scammed on my mortgage and have a chance to save it. Hope you made a difference in this womans life.
Michelle
I applaud you! I’ve seen the same thing happen at gun shows when a widow comes in with some collector Colt pistols or such. One wonders how some people sleep at night!
That seller is lucky it was you and not me. Once he got in my face I probably would of taken things into my own hands made “sure” he didn’t rip the poor woman off…lol People don’t always have time to think things through before reacting to a sitituation so what you did seems quite natural. I am sure in hindsite you probably thought of half a dozen ways that you could of handled it differently and gotten the old lady’s attention so that you could of warned her of what the buyer was trying to pull. The whole point is he KNEW he was ripping her off!!! Someone like that should not be allowed to run a business. It’s too bad his ID was not discovered. I’m sure there are plenty of organizations that would be interested in investigating him and his business practices.
I’m not a bit surprised at this incident. I’ve attended almost every BICK show in Las Vegas and could write a book on what I’ve witnessed dealers do to the uneducated public. An example: An older gentleman walked over to a dealer who displayed currency and asked if he would take a look at what he had and proceeded to take out an old envelope stuffed with Large Size notes. I was straining to look at the notes and not appear too obvious as I was at the next table over. After flipping thru the envelope the dealer told the man that he would pay him FACE VALUE for the notes as he would not be able to spend them anymore because they are no longer used!!!! Before I could believe what I was hearing the man said “OK at least i would be able to spend the new money”. The dealer quickly took out his NEW money and paid the man who turned and left the show. Sice then I have witnessed countless examples of this type of deception at this show from the dealers who claim to give Free Appraisals, etc… The promoter seems to take a very hands off attitude and from my conversations with some dealers he is only concerned with making his money for running the show. I’ve heard that quite a few dealers no longer rent tables at the BICK shows because of the promoters focus on just collecting table fees and doing nothing more. Most of the shows have been DEAD after the first hour and I have a feeling the show won’t be around much longer. One of the dealers who rented 3 or 4 tables at the BICK shows stooped renting any tables and even tried to have his own show a couple months age. That is a step in the right direction as it appears that the shows have become a free for all feeding frenzy on the public who attend. I’ve attended shows all around the country in my 40+ years of collecting and must say that this is the worst show I have ever gone to. It may as well take place in a back alley.
I agree with speaking out to help the elderly lady. When I buy from some one who does not know the value of a coin or jar of coins, I get out the red coin book and show currant values . We need more honest people in the wourld for sure. I would have spoken out also and added a FREE COIN VALUE by the book IF SHE HAD TIME. Bob C.
yes you did the right thing theirs to many people that rip people off and they dont go to jail they call it white caller crime a crime it a crime you did good
I find the coin counting machines in the supermarkets which charge 10% to count and have your change redeemed for paper highway robbery.
I had a store next to a comic and trading card store.I observed the owner buying a box of old sports cards from a kid for $50.00. Within an hour the owner resold the box of cards for $900.00 to a wholesale dealer. He closed the store early that day and felt gleeful at screwing the kid.
I can honestly see both sides of the little old lady story.
Recently(3-31-09) there was a story of a lady turning in old gold coins for face value at a local bank. Imagine turning in 20 dollar gold pieces for $20.00 and not the $1200.00/ounce bullion price.
The bank president later said he was trying to locate the lady to remedy the situation.
Hell yes you did the right thing. You should have smacked the thieving coin dealer in the face. Keep up the good work.
you did right to warn the old lady,there are too many crooks out in the coin world.it is like this in
the uk one firm that springs to mind is a firm that
tried it with me,their gold sovereigns are over one
hundred pounds dearer than other firms are.they are
the loosers though,they are still wanting me to buy
from them without any luck i may add,if these people
think they can con you integrity and honour fly out
of the window.you should be proud of yourself with your actions,best wishes.
I too have seen this happen, and I too got into trouble getting kicked out of a coin shop, that i havent been back to. An old lady came into a coin shop in West Lebanon, NH that I will not state the name of the business, but is easy to figure out. She had a cigar box full of morgan dollars that her husband that recently passed left behind. She did not know the coins worth, but was talking about how her husband loved to pick up Carson City Morgans over the years. The dealer looked quickly without analysing them ( about 30 morgans ) of which I saw the tails of about 5 with strong CC’s most EF to AU, and the dealer said how much do you want for them and she said I dont know what they are worth! The dealer said well how about $400. The lady got excited and said WOW, and was going to sell. I then stepped in and said those morgans are worth at least $100 each and that if all 30 are CC’s that she has at least $3000 in coins there. The dealer with veins bulging from his forehead and red faced yelled at the top of his lungs …. GET THE %$#^ OUT OF MY STORE AND NEVER COME BACK!!! As I left I saw that the woman was in total shock quickly closing the wooden cigar box and started crying. I felt bad for her and I walked out and waited for her to leave. Upon her exit of the coin shop, I said excuse me mam, I am sorry about what happened in there. There are a lot of crooks out there and he is unfortunately one of them. I asked her if she had any family members who use ebay. She said her daughter does for buying and selling crafts and jewelry. I said for her to consult with her daughter and list the coins on ebay by bid auctions with a $90 reserve on each coin sold individually, for sale to get top dollar and avoid theivery. She said God Bless You! And stopped crying and got into her car and left.
((( I believe it is totally in the RIGHT to stop theives… Citizen on Patrol is COPs… Im not a cop, but i am a Citizen that can look out to protect others!!! )))
You should of offered her twice whatever he was
willing to pay just to stop the sale.
she would of immediatly understood the situation.
Well, Well, I am not totally suprised to all or most majority to coin dealer or any other person in Numismatist Bussinesis with regards a STEAL . means paying very low low price with a Pricey One..In 1995 everybodys in Numismatist world is looking for 1995 Double Die and it was in TV news it say worth about 600$ ea. average. march of 1996 I went to Baltimore Coin Show and I let this peoles see my 1995 Double Denomination the old man scream and he accompany me to a man collecting error and he offered me for 100$ us Dollar for my coin..of course He never get may coin on that price. Why? Someone already told me my coin worth Million $ try to read on my web site http://www.pennyondime.com or search in you tube pennyondime95. Thanks everyone.
All I can say is if I were in the place of the older woman, I would have greatly appreciated your comments. All you did was expose the truth, and how could that be wrong??! If you’re a coin dealer, finding a “deal” is one thing. Withholding information to rip someone off is another, and is no different than selling fake or altered coins (in my opinion).
Hi !
You did the right thing , a dealer like this should be stopped dealing
Regards Gunter
You should have whispered in her ear what the coins where worth and offerd $500 or more over the dealers offer just to get her away that booth
I was in a similar situation at a coin show. A dealer was trying to rip off someone that had a binder of old large cents. I heard him offering the person $2 a piece (i caught it at the tale end) the entire binder the person WAS ready to sell to this dealer for about $60. I was able to see one of the pages out of the corner of my eye and one that caught my attention was a draped bust with a lot of detail – at least in the extra fine range. I was outraged! However, I could not interfere, especially because I am a coin dealer. (However, I one of those honest coin dealers that loves it so much that I tell the seller TOO much information about their coins, show them in the book and take the time with them. I make a small percentage and everyone is happy! Anyway I digressed for a moment: what I did is I spoke to the man after he sold and told him that his coin appeared to be worth at the very east $10 a coin and upwards of the hundreds per coin but I wasnt sure because I did not see them. I asked him to please not mention my name or that I spoke with him but that he should try to get his coins back. I did not offer to buy or look at his coins because then I felt it was a conflict of interest.
Result: The buyer got his coins back after a somewhat heated altercation with the dealer claiming “no trade-backs”. but I think this dealer was just somewhat unethical and was a bit embarrassed so sold them back for the $60. Later the guy found me when I was eating lunch and thanked me and asked for my business card. A week later I went through the binder with him. He had over $10,000 worth of old coins in this book including a very beautiful AMERI chain cent. We spent about 4 hours going through his coins and I priced them all out for him (approx. based on their range etc). Anyway I gave the guy 2 options: I could make him an offer based on my grading ability and explained I would knock most of them down a grade for protection OR I could send them in to get graded and then he could then sell to me at their pcgs grade OR sell them at auction and just pay me for my time for sending them in (I generally charge about $50 or so for an order this large). ANYWAY – he ended up just selling to me. I bought the collection got $8,500. I send most of them in for grading myself (as I told him I would do) and in the end when I was done, I sold all the coin except 3 that I kept (a beautiful braided hair in au58 and the chain cent ameri in vg). I broke even and got those 2 coins now in my personal collection. A very awesome deal and I didnt have to be shady to do it.
Another great thought-provoking column!
I liked everyone’s responses, but (38)’s was short and sweet: the dealer LIED to the old lady.
And Jim (19) made some good points as well, but that dealer also LIED to Susan when he claimed that the bag of wheat cents was “unsearched” as he dumped them into the bin.
So, where do we go from here? Is outright LYING part of the coin dealing game?
Maybe both dealer’s tongues will turn black! *lol*
All best,
Joe
Very interesting comments all. Thanks for the article. Just wanted to say that it isn’t illegal if I want to sell my house, car, and wardrobe for .10 cents. It just isn’t. I’d also like the country to see how some of the insurance, pharmaceutical, banking, and a few other assorted companies act exactly like unscrupulous coin dealers. Then again, this is how capitalism works. Buy low …sell high. It shouldn’t be a surprise or any reason to cast shame on anyone or anything. You either have “let the buyer/seller beware” ethic inside you or you don’t. It’s just another reason why some people “have” and some “won’t.”
She didn’t go into the show to try to find someone to sell her coins to for 10 cents. She went in to find out a fair market price, but was scammed by what some lay people would believe to be a knowledgeable and fair offer…(”Lady, your coins ARE NOT MINT STATE!!! There is nobody here that will pay you more than I will! A thousand dollars is a lot of money for these coins!)
Big difference.
I would have walked up to the woman and said “lady I’ll give you two thousand”.
I would have done the same. It really irks me when people take advantage of the uninformed. The lady came for the truth. Why take advantage of her? He was going to make money anyway. Shame on her children for not even helping her discover the true value of these coins. It really irks me when I hear of sleeze balls such as the one you described. I am glad I read about your experience. I will definitely will be on the look out.
Hindsight is always 20/20 and we always think of something better to say or do after an incident. While I appreicate your side of the story, I cannot judge the dealer through your eyes or words. It seems exactly as you portrayed it, thereby, reprehensible on the part of the dealer.
That said, thanks to your story and if I should witness something like this, while risky, I might say, “Come on Aunt Agnes, I heard another dealer a few isles over is offer free appriaisals.” Then gently take the lady by the arm to lead her away, maybe winking and showing every sign that I was trying to help her. What could the dealer say to that unless Aunt Anges didn’t catch on and protested. Then I would quickly walk away and wish her luck. Thank you for sharing this story.
You did well in warning that lady….it happens all the time, to both men or women…actually all unsuspecting and trustful people. I applaud your actions and would have done the same. It’s ok to make money…it’s downright wrong to steal. Always tell people what they have, and what you are willing to offer. You will get better deals when everyone gets something out of it.
I have seen it too many times with local coin dealers ripping off the average person. Here’s how to get around it.
Know what your bringing into the coin dealer first. Go into the dealer and ask them that your looking to buy a (ie.. what you brought in that he does not know) see what he would sell it for, and act as if you are the purchaser. Then when he tells you his price, announce that you have that coin in your pocket and that’s exactly what you would like to sell. Show him the coin and watch the look on his face.
Yes you did the right thing by speaking up and I hope the lady kept those coin and went to a legitimate dealer. I would have tried to get a bargain, we all would, but I would not have blatently stolen from anybody.
Sadly, this is why coin dealers are lumped in with used car salesmen, shyster lawyers and pawn Brokers.
That dealer was a loser. If he knew so much about coins and the coin business, why did he have to cheat a little old lady of her coins. The word “cheat” is used lightly here because it should really be “rip off!” I don’t know if he had stopped to think about how he would feel if someone were to do that to his mother, grandmother, wife, daughter or any other female in his family. Of course, some people will say business is business. But I think that coin collecting is much more than just that.
That’s how I see it from, “Hector’s World.”
It is one thing to make a profit, but it is another to take advantage of a naive little old lady. There is a line between making a profit and stealing and it is not all that thin. If you saw a woman getting raped, would you just pass by and say that it was none of your business? Absolutely not! You did the right thing. I have learned much in my life, and unfortunately, I have not always been as honest as I am now. I have made much more profit by being honest and passing on a “good deal”, than by stealing from unknowing old people.
Your actions were correct. I’m glad that you were there to prevent such a sham.
i agree you did the right thing.i too inherited a coin collection and have found no dealer or coin shop that honors any numisic values except when they are selling.
my advice to anyone in this situation is to sell them at auction with a reserve so as to pit these paranas against
each other and let blood flow.sorry to be so hard but i call them like i see them..thanks ,phil
Yesterday, while perusing Ebay, I came up with an auction very similar to your description here, except on a larger scale – out to fleece everyone not just a little old lady.
It was an auction for an “Original 32 note sheet of 2003 uncut 2 dollar bills” The auction (Buy it Now) went on to say that these came directly from the BEP and were rescued before being cut. They are available for the awsome price of 359.00 with FREE shipping. Wow, Selling a currently available product (90.00 from the BEP) for 4 times what the BEP is asking …. There are some real losers on Ebay. Guess he’s not a member of the ANA.
Of course you were justified in helping the older woman. There is an ethic that must remain within each of us if we will ever grow as individuals within a society. Willful unethical treatment to anyone, regardless if it is few thousand dollars, a few cents, is intolerable. Thomas Jefferson said, “injustice anywhere is a threat to justice everywhere”. Thank you…. –David
you did the right thing. You should of asked the lady to talk to
you in private before she agreed to anything.
they should of arrested the coin dealer any one who says “now or never” run away as fast as possible.
my so called friend when I was younger, took advantage of me and stoled all of my coin collection. I had indian head pennies, half dollars, etc. but we’re still friend’s.
just watch out who your friends are
I think you should have said something because the man was stealing from the woman who didn’t know anything about coins.
Remember the Good Book “Do unto others as you would have others do unto you”
Thank goodness for people like you. I am so glad to hear there are still people with ethics. Keep up the good work.
You did the right thing in my book. It is one thing to get a good deal whether buying or selling, it is another to buy one coin and steal the rest. I went to a show recently that had similar dealers. Silver Spot was around $18.70. I was offered 4X face for $120.00 worth of 90% 64 Kennedy halves and $1.25 on the dollar for $210.00 in 40% Kennedy’s by the only dealer that was buying.
It was a very lame show only six dealers total, one selling supplies, one selling only metal detectors, one was doing paper only ( currency and stocks ) and the other three were doing coinage. I was told to take it or leave it, that was the only offer I would get. So I gathered up my wares and went about my business. One more thing, I was wanting to buy a 2009 ASE, I could have bought one at that show for a mere $40.00. Picked one up a week later at a good coin show for $19.00.
yes i agree with what you did, i will do the same thing and help out that poor lady with the scam people around her, especially i always have a heart for elderly, my heart goes out to them i hope that old lady didn’t pursue to sell out to that scam guy.
When you go to get your car fixed and they sell you a $3000 transmission job when all you needed was a $20 electronic part that was causing the slipping, and laugh about it. Maybe they don’t even put in the new transmission at all and just the part. Now tell me, is that a “good deal” for the repair shop, or a crime committed by them?
If you think she got in the way of someone doing business, then i sincerely hope you wind up at that kind of repair shop every time.
Better yet, how about that way of thinking next time you’re at the doctors office. Got the flu? No, you need your kidney removed! We’ll take it out for you for 20 grand (and since it’s healthy, we’ll sell it for 5 times that price). Yeah, that’s fair!
To say it is the fault of the person who is being taken advantage if is to say that YOU are a willing criminal and other people don’t deserve your honesty like you would expect from them. That would make you a bad person individually and a lousy citizen in society.
Dealers like that are ridiculous. Every single one of them are scumbags that deserve no right to conduct business. I wish there was some kind of committee that could assess the reliability and fairness of coin dealers and that committee publish a list of those reputable and fair dealers for people to look at and get a good deal for both parties. And if the crooked dealers went out of business because of that, I have absolutely no sympathy whatsoever for the dealer. I would just feel bad for his family that they had to suffer for his deliberate thefts. That old lady’s family should have kept those coins. Not just because they are collectible coins, but they also have family history behind them. That lady probably had grandchildren, if not greatgrandchildren. You should have punched that dealer square in the jaw and knocked some sense into him. Maybe, just maybe he would see the error of his ways (not likely though, given your description. He should have been arrested. Good job, you should be commended for actions and no one should hesitate to help anyone, especially the elderly.
you absolutely did the correct thing. It seems that the admin. dept. of the show promoters could care less.
You where right to speak up! That why I no longer collect, because of the many times I’ve been scammed by coin dealer. I also believe that in part is why the hobby is not attracting younger people. Because their parent experienced the same thing I have.
Yes, you did the right thing, but not in the right way. Discretion could have saved a number of things in that situation. If you would have DISCREETLY got the lady’s attention maybe a little sooner, and not abruptly butted in the final part of the transaction, you could have avoided 1) causing a scene 2) getting thrown out 3) stayed to make sure the transaction didn’t go through 4) got the dealer’s number.
I think we all have moments where gross injustice causes us to boil with indignation, but keeping it in check and slowing our impulses to be more strategic in handling situations can achieve a better outcome to all involved.
The Lady was getting taken to the cleaners by the buyer and it is only right you spoke up. You might have done it a little more tactfully, but under the circumstances, there wasn’t much time to speak your mind. Keep up the good work.
You undoubtedly did the right thing. Expect your karma to be very favorable.
You did right. I was thrown out of a car parts swap meet because of my partners bad behavior, he was going around giving other sellers hell because they were selling their parts for less and giving advice for free. There were complaints being made while I held down the fort and I was asked to leave. They did apologize after the show telling me they would have let me stay and evicted my friend had they known there were two of us. We have since parted company because I also sell for less and give free advice, its the best way to get customers and then keep them.
I realize I’m a little late to this discussion, however I cannot say something. Kudoos to you for standing up for the woman. Thankfully there are still some people who have a sense of right and wrong. I am appalled at the very idea that you questioned your right to stand up for that woman. What that “dealer” tried to do was not only unethical it was illegal. There are laws to protect the elderly and disabled from being taken advantage of. What you did is what her family should have done. Never question doing the right thing. It’s pathetic that a sob like that dealer would pray on someone like that woman. Even worse is that the people in charge of the event allowed it and threw you out instead of hearing you out.
the world needs more people with a your sense of honor.
You did the right thing….I had the same experience with a trading card/coin dealer. A woman in her 40’s was at the counter with a huge wooden box full of tobacco cards from her grandfather…the cards were in excellent condition. I was excited to see them and would have bought them if I had about $50k. The dealer was obnoxious and brushed her off saying that they weren’t worth much…that they were no name players- mind you he literally looked at them for about 14 seconds. He told her that he would give her $300.00 for them and the phone rang he turned to answer it. I told her that I was a collector and that she should not under any circumstance sell them to him and to investigate thier value before selling. I flat out told her that he was about to take her for a fool and that her collection is worth thousands. She thanked me, grabbed her box and walked out.
I found an old coin in my yard. It is dated 1829. It is a one cent Liberty. It has thirteen stars. Do you know what it may be worth?
Jenna
I would have spoken up and i’m glad you did, poor little old lady. That was an evil coin dealer and i hope she didn’t sell them to him. i understand that everyone needs to make a profit but he was just dirty.
You were absolutely correct in attempting to prevent fraud. Actually you could have carried it further and made a formal complaint to the Las Vegas Police Department. Defrauding the public is a felony and the dealer as well as those involved should have been arrested. Additionally, a letter to the IRS is always a nice way to right a wrong.
Honesty plays a part in all human communication, including honesty with ourselves. The fact that so many people who responded to this article and side with the old woman-despise this “dishonest” coin dealer-only emphasises our own hypocracy. We all have our own set of rules-which we apply inconsistently depending on who we apply those rules to. More on this in a moment…
We’re all pissed off at this bad coin dealer for screwing this old woman because he DID know how valuable the coins were, and was looking to “get a deal” and take advantage of a little old lady. We hate this type of dealer.
Yet the guy who goes to a “little old lady’s” yardsale in Boston(a true story-by the way), and buys an old painting for $20, that turns out to be worth millions, we say hooray for him! We saw this guy on the Antique Road Show!!! We applaud and champion this guy’s fantastic find, buying an old painting for $20 at a yardsale and it turns out to be worth millions-from an old woman who did not know it’s true value-nor really cared. She was, in fact happy to have cleaned out her garage and made a few dollars!
Why do we hate the dealer who pays $700 for a few thousand dollars worth of coins, and LOVE and celebrate the guy who pays just $20 for a painting worth millions?
Why do we champion one person who gets a great deal? And hate the other?
Because we are all hypocrites.
The intention of the dealer is what we hate-purposely and knowingly taking advantage of an underinformed old woman. But did he take advantage-or simply engage in a private negotiation?
We(an outside, uninvolved 3rd party) hate that the dealer KNEW he was going to make a very large profit on those coins when he resold them.
So why don’t we hate the guy who made the great find at the yardsale? There are, after all, many people who make a living searching for “hidden” treasure at yardsales. They find something interesting, make a private negotiation with the seller on a price, and both walk away happy. With no interference from any uninvolved 3rd party.
So is any private negotiation between two parties-subject to ethical standards, only when witnessed by an uninvolved 3rd party? Or should there never be any more private negotiations?
Knowledge and experience are the only advantages anyone has in their chosen fields, including the one YOU are in. Does using the extent and potential of your knowledge and experience make you unethical in dealing with someone less informed, including your competition? Or is it your responsibility to educate everyone with whom you communicate?
If everyone was completely honest with others, and themselves-I can assure you this would certainly be a different world we live in, and perhaps not a better one.
Oh, and by the way, you say you’re not a hypocrite? You treat everyone the same no matter who they are?
I say we hold certain people with certain titles, and our own perceptions of them, to a higher standard than the average person. It wouldn’t be surprising to find a neighbor down the street cheating on his wife, or taking advantage of someone else–but we sure are surprised when we find out it’s our Pastor who is taking advantage of someone else! Or a Tiger Woods. Or a professional coin dealer. See how our view of someone can change based upon who they are, or their “title”? Next time you say someone is taking advantage of someone else-ask yourself WHY it bothers YOU so much.
You absolutely did the right thing.
There are still way too many dealers engaged in this type of practice, which gives the entire coin community a bad name.
Well Phil, There’s a BIG difference in your analogy. The yard sale already has a price marked for selling, whereas this lady went in to GET a price quote. He asked her what she wanted for them. How do you know what to sell for if you went there to find out the worth in the first place?? He’s a professional for cris-sake, (maybe at scamming), still should show a little ethics!
You were spot on to say something. For those who are asking that if a dealer was unknowingly selling a coin for far less than the coins value, then what is the difference?
Well the difference is this… if you intervened on the dealers behalf, I gurentee you would not have been thrown out.
So yes… what you did whas correct and very honerable.
Sure you did the morally correct thing, however, in addition, the fact is that the dealer hold himself out as an expert and the public should be able to rely on this. The dealer acting in this was is not only unethical, it is a fraudulent misrepresentation that could possibly be criminal.
This goes on more than you know .A respected and so-called “Honest” dealer was caught by me offering a man $60 for 2 error coins worth at least $800.00
The man declined the offer then came to me .I saw the double denomination Cent over dime and a dime missing reverse clad layer .I bought them .I lost all respect for this dealer and will not do business with him again .