PCGS Buys Chinese Counterfeit Dies Online
Coin World is reporting in its September 8 issue that PCGS has purchased a selection of counterfeit Chinese coins and coin dies on an unnamed online auction site. The coins, which are being sold as "Chinese Ackey coins" are actually counterfeit Chinese coins, not the fake U.S. coins we saw a few months ago when I was the first journalist to break the story that included numerous photos inside a Chinese counterfeiting ring. PCGS also bought several coin dies meant for striking fake Chinese coins, apparently in the same auction purchase.
A press release, which was sent by PCGS to most of the major numismatic media, included some photos that show what PCGS bought. It would have been nice to know how much they paid for the lot, and which auction site they bought it on (probably eBay, but was it U.S. eBay or Chinese eBay?) A quick trawl of U.S. eBay produced 15 active auctions for this same coin set, in the same booklet (but without the dies) from 15 different sellers. All 15 sellers are linked to the same gang of fakes sellers known as the "Hello Xiang Gang." They sell all kinds of fake stuff, but fake Chinese coins seem to be among their best sellers. I would provide a link, but eBay's new server-side software doesn't seem to be conducive to deep-linking. You can replicate my search and see the same results by following these steps (you might need to log in at some point):
Visit the eBay Chinese Coins main page:
http://coins.shop.ebay.com/items/China__W0QQ_sacatZ4368
Type 80 coin into the search box and click the "Search" button.
When the results display, there will probably be a few sales lower than my number, since I can see that several of these auctions end in the next few hours, but probably a few more will be started by then. You can see who the sellers are (on the same page) by clicking "Customize View" in the header above the top result. Select the "Seller Information" link on the left, and then check the boxes next to "Seller User ID" and "Seller Feedback." Click the "Apply Changes" button, and you'll see that more than a dozen sellers are selling this identical item. You'll also see that all but one of the accounts has a feedback rating between 20 and 30. If you visit each page, you'll see that they all use the same image with some text overwritten on the left side. The presentations on the pages are all slightly different otherwise in color and text. Only the images are identical. Back on the search results page, clicking the option on the left side to show "completed listings" provides a list of 62 closed auctions for this same album, only 3 of which sold. (Your results will be different, since auctions are constantly starting, ending, and expiring from the free "completed listings" archive.) Lest you be tempted to pick up a copy of this fine set of counterfeit Chinese coins for youself at the seemingly low starting price, be warned that the shipping charges average $73! Don't ask me why eBay never puts a stop to this shipping abuse; I've given up on reporting the offenders. You would think eBay would do something, since it cuts into their "final value" sales revenue. For that matter, you would think eBay would sweep its marketplace clean of all these scammers and fakes sellers!
Although my brief forays into eBay this evening didn't produce any coin dies for sale, PCGS did find some in an online auction somewhere. I have photos and details on the Counterfeit Chinese Ackey Coins page. PCGS claims to have bought the coins and dies to take them off the market, but in my opinion they bought them only for publicity value. Whatever PCGS's reason, I'll believe they mean to do the hobby a real service when they stop flooding our marketplace with fraudulent designations such as "First Strikes" and "First Day of Issue." (For those wondering, no, "First Strikes" are not struck first, and coin dealers can send in their coins a decade from now and still get a "First Day of Issue" designation from PCGS. Sounds like fraud to me. Even the U.S Mint itself has issued warnings against "First Strikes".)
What do you think about the rampant Chinese counterfeiting threat? How should the hobby handle the problem? Should PCGS continue to buy up all the coins and dies these fakers sell to take them off the market, as PCGS says was the reason they bought the ones they did? Or do we need another solution? Share your views via the "Comments" link below.
Comments
Good story but you were not the first one to break the story about Chinese counterfeits.
There were stories about them going back to last year.
Also, I noticed you only berate PCGS for First Strike coins and not NGC http://www.ngccoin.com/services/earlyrelease.asp
It’s obvious from your past and present writings that you have a personal issue with PCGS and seem to go out of your way to attack them at every chance.
I enjoy reading many of the stories you write but honestly feel that attacking one company all the time while letting another (that does the same thing) slide is wrong and beneath you.
Respectfully,
JamesD.
It is not PCGS’s responsibility to buy up any fake dies being sold at auction. It is not even there responsibility to buy up equipment for making fake PCGS slabs, although if they had the opportunity it might be in their best interest to do so.
I think the problem is EBay. They make it difficult to report fraudulent auctions, and seen to do little to shut them down. I have reported fake insects in amber, and yet day after day new auctions are posted with the same pictures. Unless EBay or the Chinese government cracks down, it’s caveat emptor.
whenever i reported fraud and/or deceptive goings on ebay, i always put the offending ad on my watch list. always without exception, the sale was completed. i guess complaints and alerts are considered garbage material.keep reporting the scammers!!!! give us their names
Thanks, everyone for your comments.
James, I was the first numismatic journalist to report the Chinese counterfeiting story, although I, too, saw it in the forums several months before I took the time to track down the sources. My point was that, even though the information was out there, I was the first to elevate it to the level of serious consideration in the hobby. (I’m not trying to imply that forum discussions aren’t serious, either, before someone tries to pick my words apart; what I’m trying to say is that there is a big difference between something being posted in discussion forums, and something that a journalist from a major New York Times Company-owned media outlet covers.)
As for my “picking on” PCGS, yep, I’ll be the first to admit that I’m not real happy with many of their practices, but you could hardly say I favor NGC after reading the blog post I made prior to the one we’re commenting on:
NGC’s New High Tech Coin Holder
I think both of the major TPGs are failing in their efforts to do their very best for the marketplace they lead, but at least NGC deals at a level of honesty and relating to collectors in a direct fashion, where PCGS’s approach is more lordly and dictating to us. NGC engages us in the conversation, where PCGS deletes our opinions from their forums and talks down to us without hearing our side of things (as collectors.) At least, this is my impression of the key difference between these two companies.
Gdnp, I agree that PCGS doesn’t have a responsibility to buy up the fakes and dies; my main point was that I took umbrage at their token gesture, which I believe was done for publicity purposes, when they claim they did it to take the things off the market. If taking these things off the market was really PCGS’s intention, one high-profile buy hardly gives them bragging rights in this respect. I think they bought the dies because they knew they’d get some publicity mileage out of it.
I don’t know this to be a fact, I’m only GUESSING, but it wouldn’t surprise me if this whole buy came about because someone on the PCGS forums posted the photos and a link to the auction as a sort of “OMG look what they’re selling now” post, and some executive at PCGS thought, “wow, this would make a great display for coin shows” or something similar, so they followed the link and bought the lot. But that’s just a guess. Somehow I find it real hard to believe that an executive at PCGS regularly trawls the Chinese Coins section of eBay buying up the fake dies each time they see them. At least prior to this day.
Susan Headley
About.com Guide to Coins
The issue of fakes on eBay is a problem eBay needs to resolve. They have numerous requirements now where sellers must ‘certify’ to the ‘best of their knowledge’ that the items are authentic. If enough people/PCGS/NCG give feedback to eBay, I believe that eBay would block future listings.
It’s just a shame that there are ALWAYS folks out there who are trying to scam.
I’m not sure about the comment saying that NGC relates a level of honesty.
There was that whole thing with Tom Noe I remember reading about. Also, they are privatly held so we don’t know much about their business.
As far as the counterfeit issue goes, I guess you are correct on that one. I was not aware that your blogs were being published by the NY Times! That’s great!!!
I read the Times on occasion and will keep an eye out for your stories.
Respectfully,
James D
JamesD,
I’m sorry if my statement about the New York Times Company wasn’t clear. My blogs aren’t published in the New York Times newspaper (yet.)
What I was referring to was that About.com is owned by the New York Times Company, and as such, has very high standards of journalism, and is regarded as a major media outlet that rates quite a bit higher than the average blogger or coin collectors’ discussion forum.
My point was mainly that although the counterfeit coins photos had been circulating for awhile in the hobby, I was the first journalist to take the time and effort to track the original source down. Or maybe others tried and I was the first one to be successful. Tracing this was in interesting journey through numismatic forums in France, Greece, Russia, and the Far East, much of which I couldn’t even read! Fortunately photos don’t require language translation, and for the most part, the people posting them had enough English to tell me where they had gotten them from so I could follow the trail.
Anyway, sorry for the confusion about the New York Times Company. Sometimes I forget that the whole world doesn’t know that About.com is owned by them. =)
Warmly,
Susan Headley
About.com Guide to Coins
Susan
If I give PCGS the benefit of the doubt, they bought the set to educate collectors at their expos and major coin shows.
If I look for an ulterior motive, then I say PCGS will display the set to scare collectors into using TPG’s to verify the authenticity of their coins.
IMO, I think it is a measure of both to educate and to create new business. I really do not believe it is unethical for PCGS to use the set to create new business, but a person should realize it does play into their economic hands to have counterfeits floating around in abundance.
Given the above premise I would say it probably is a wise move on the part of PCGS to buy a set and display it.
BB
While I enjoy reading the NY Times on occasion I take everything with a grain of salt!
I think facts shown about the paper in Wikipedia might disagree with the statement “high standards of journalism” lol.
But it is a fun paper to read!
Great job by PCGS IMO.
I think PCGS is doing a great job,but on the end the cost will raise the grading. I think
at least E-Bay should stop to list the chinas
Seller , until this =copies= stop.
Hi, I have also bought these 80 coins, although knowing, that they are fake. I got them on ebay in Germany for 52.- € including postage. They were advertised as “being inherited 20 years ago, old coins etc.” I gave a bad declaration into ebays net.
Your article is good.
Manfred Heer