Coin Dealer Ethics Follow-Up - Who's on First?
Tuesday April 29, 2008
Last week, I presented an ethics scenario detailing my experience with a certain dealer at a recent coin show. I had been looking through a small box of Morgan Dollars, mentally adding up to make an offer for the whole lot based roughly on the prices marked on the coins. Suddenly the dealer snatched the box right out of my hand and placed it in front of another customer, to whom he sold the whole batch in a transaction he took pains to avoid my hearing, despite my interjections that I, too, wanted to buy the lot and my request that my offer be considered. In the end, I was left holding one of the coins from this lot, which I eventually bought as a single coin. You can read the entire scenario, along with everyone's comments, in the original coin dealer ethics "Who's on First" column.
Most of the readers who participated in the discussion about this topic felt that I had been badly treated by the dealer, and many folks left the opinion that they wouldn't have purchased anything from this guy had they been in my shoes. A few speculated about my reasons for buying the coin, wondering if it was counterfeit or perhaps a rare VAM variety. Several readers called for me to name the dealer openly so that others could be warned about him, and some people wanted to see the dealer's side of the story.
First off, I must confess that I only told half of the story here when I gave this scenario. My main reason for doing this was that I wanted the focus to be on the actions of the dealer and not speculation or excuses as to why he might have behaved so rudely. Although the circumstances of this dealer's life might mitigate his behavior in many people's eyes, nearly everyone I asked who has known this dealer for years through the coin show circuit assured me that his attitude isn't much changed by the tragedy he suffered; he has always been a bit surly and in possession of precious little patience. A couple of people characterized him as the "greedy sort of dealer" who doesn't act in the best interests of the hobby (but this is true of many dealers.)
The dealer I had this encounter with is named Lenny Bird. Here is an account of the tragedy that befell him just over a year ago, on Wednesday, Feb. 21, 2007:
Niles, Illinois is a normally quiet suburb about 25 miles northwest of Chicago, but on this chilly, late-winter day, the peacefulness of a man's home and life were shattered forever. Coin dealer Lenny Bird was upstairs in the home he shared with his son, Michael, when he heard a commotion downstairs, and a pop pop pop that sounded like gunfire. Lenny, who kept a gun at home for protection, since he dealt in rare coins and jewelry, and had been the victim of a previous burglary attempt, grabbed his weapon and rushed down the stairs.
His beloved son, only 28 years old, was lying on the floor near the entryway. Michael's blood was spreading quickly into a wide puddle as Lenny gave chase, firing off a few rounds of his own. By the time police arrived moments later, all Lenny could do was hold his dear son's body; Michael died on that chilly February day because someone wanted to rob Lenny's safe.
Lenny has been in the coin business for decades, and is fairly well-known in the greater Chicago numismatic community because of his frequent appearances as a seller at local coin shows. The death of his son stunned the numismatic community, serving as a reminder that personal security is an important consideration for us all. Lenny used to hand out business cards with his home address and phone number on them; today he won't hand out any business card at all, and the only phone number he gives out is a cell phone.
When I visited Lenny's table at the coin show weekend-before-last, I didn't know who he was. Of course I knew a local dealer had been robbed and that his son had been killed, and I might have been able to tell you that the dealer's name was something-Bird, but I didn't know that this particular man was the victim. I'm not in the habit of scrutinizing everyone's name badge at coin shows, (a habit I should probably learn as a journalist,) so when a couple of folks came by and said things like, "I'm glad to hear the good news," and "you're still in my prayers, my friend," I didn't realize what they meant. (The "good news" is that the police recently caught Michael's killer.)
As I noted in my original write-up, I wasn't at Lenny's table for very long, no more than maybe 3 or 4 minutes before Lenny snatched the box of coins out of my hand. However, after that incident, around the same time that I realized that I still had one of the coins in my hand, the person had come up to Lenny's table who said he was glad to hear the good news. In response to this, Lenny reached behind himself and brought forward a folded-open newspaper which was open to a story about the capture of the killer. He set the paper down between myself and the other guy, and then looked at me and said, "This guy killed my son. They've finally caught him!"
All at once, my vague recollection this horrible event came rushing back. I mumbled something asinine like, "oh, that's YOU that this happened to?" and pretty soon there was another newspaper on the table, this one an account of the murder itself. While I was reading, the other guy had a brief conversation about the killer's capture, and when I was alone again with Lenny I felt very awkward. All I could think of to say was, "I think I'd like to buy this coin," (meaning the Morgan Dollar I was still holding.) "How much is it?" Lenny got out his Grey Sheet and looked it up, and announced that it was $29. I asked what grade basis he used for the price and he said, "MS-60. Is that a problem?" (Already that nasty attitude was back in his voice.) All I could think of was that I wanted to get away from his table quickly and courteously. I bought the coin primarily because I was keenly uncomfortable and felt like I would be being a real jerk if I didn't at least buy something. After all, this poor guy had suffered a genuine tragedy and I really felt sorry for him but I didn't know how to express it to this curmudgeonly stranger. I guess buying the coin soothed my conscience a little, and the price didn't seem overly ridiculous although it was more than double the price marked on the coin. When I got the coin home and could examine it at leisure, I discovered that it is 1897-P VAM-2, a subtle repunched-date variety that doesn't normally warrant a premium. The grade of the coin, however, according to a couple of other dealers who know Morgan Dollars much better than I, would probably come in at MS-62, MS-61 for certain, if I sent it to NGC or PCGS. This fact doesn't add much value to the coin.
I haven't asked Lenny Bird if he wants to give his side of the story yet because I hadn't told the full story until now. In addition, I decided not to quote any of the comments that readers left, because I didn't want to make anybody appear to be crass or insensitive, since people might feel a little differently had they known the rest of the story. While I don't think that Lenny's tragedy excuses his rude, unfriendly behavior, I am very reluctant to condemn him too harshly since I've never walked in his shoes. One thing is certain; I wasn't the only visitor to his table who found him to be rude. Here is a quote from a Collector's Universe Forum member called "Speety":
On a side note, dealers don't be fooled by someone's age. Once again I, who just turned 18, got a snooty response from a dealer when I asked to see an 1841 AU-58 seated dollar. The dealer, Lenny Bird, just replied with 'It's $2,800' twice when I asked to see the coin and didn't move a muscle to open the case. Now $2,800 isn't pocket change but when someone asks to see the coin you allow them to see the coin -- I certainly could have dropped $2,800 on the coin if I thought it was nice, but because of his BS attitude he lost a potential customer for good. (Here is a link to Speety's original post.)
So, this brings us to another Ethics question: Knowing what you know now, has your opinion of this event changed? Was Lenny justified in snatching the box out of my hands, and making a deal that excluded me, the person who presumably had current "claim" to an interest in buying the coins? Do you still feel as harshly towards him as you did when you left your comment last week? I think this discussion will shed some interesting light on human nature, and I look forward to hearing your responses.
Most of the readers who participated in the discussion about this topic felt that I had been badly treated by the dealer, and many folks left the opinion that they wouldn't have purchased anything from this guy had they been in my shoes. A few speculated about my reasons for buying the coin, wondering if it was counterfeit or perhaps a rare VAM variety. Several readers called for me to name the dealer openly so that others could be warned about him, and some people wanted to see the dealer's side of the story.
First off, I must confess that I only told half of the story here when I gave this scenario. My main reason for doing this was that I wanted the focus to be on the actions of the dealer and not speculation or excuses as to why he might have behaved so rudely. Although the circumstances of this dealer's life might mitigate his behavior in many people's eyes, nearly everyone I asked who has known this dealer for years through the coin show circuit assured me that his attitude isn't much changed by the tragedy he suffered; he has always been a bit surly and in possession of precious little patience. A couple of people characterized him as the "greedy sort of dealer" who doesn't act in the best interests of the hobby (but this is true of many dealers.)
The dealer I had this encounter with is named Lenny Bird. Here is an account of the tragedy that befell him just over a year ago, on Wednesday, Feb. 21, 2007:
Niles, Illinois is a normally quiet suburb about 25 miles northwest of Chicago, but on this chilly, late-winter day, the peacefulness of a man's home and life were shattered forever. Coin dealer Lenny Bird was upstairs in the home he shared with his son, Michael, when he heard a commotion downstairs, and a pop pop pop that sounded like gunfire. Lenny, who kept a gun at home for protection, since he dealt in rare coins and jewelry, and had been the victim of a previous burglary attempt, grabbed his weapon and rushed down the stairs.
His beloved son, only 28 years old, was lying on the floor near the entryway. Michael's blood was spreading quickly into a wide puddle as Lenny gave chase, firing off a few rounds of his own. By the time police arrived moments later, all Lenny could do was hold his dear son's body; Michael died on that chilly February day because someone wanted to rob Lenny's safe.
Lenny has been in the coin business for decades, and is fairly well-known in the greater Chicago numismatic community because of his frequent appearances as a seller at local coin shows. The death of his son stunned the numismatic community, serving as a reminder that personal security is an important consideration for us all. Lenny used to hand out business cards with his home address and phone number on them; today he won't hand out any business card at all, and the only phone number he gives out is a cell phone.
When I visited Lenny's table at the coin show weekend-before-last, I didn't know who he was. Of course I knew a local dealer had been robbed and that his son had been killed, and I might have been able to tell you that the dealer's name was something-Bird, but I didn't know that this particular man was the victim. I'm not in the habit of scrutinizing everyone's name badge at coin shows, (a habit I should probably learn as a journalist,) so when a couple of folks came by and said things like, "I'm glad to hear the good news," and "you're still in my prayers, my friend," I didn't realize what they meant. (The "good news" is that the police recently caught Michael's killer.)
As I noted in my original write-up, I wasn't at Lenny's table for very long, no more than maybe 3 or 4 minutes before Lenny snatched the box of coins out of my hand. However, after that incident, around the same time that I realized that I still had one of the coins in my hand, the person had come up to Lenny's table who said he was glad to hear the good news. In response to this, Lenny reached behind himself and brought forward a folded-open newspaper which was open to a story about the capture of the killer. He set the paper down between myself and the other guy, and then looked at me and said, "This guy killed my son. They've finally caught him!"
All at once, my vague recollection this horrible event came rushing back. I mumbled something asinine like, "oh, that's YOU that this happened to?" and pretty soon there was another newspaper on the table, this one an account of the murder itself. While I was reading, the other guy had a brief conversation about the killer's capture, and when I was alone again with Lenny I felt very awkward. All I could think of to say was, "I think I'd like to buy this coin," (meaning the Morgan Dollar I was still holding.) "How much is it?" Lenny got out his Grey Sheet and looked it up, and announced that it was $29. I asked what grade basis he used for the price and he said, "MS-60. Is that a problem?" (Already that nasty attitude was back in his voice.) All I could think of was that I wanted to get away from his table quickly and courteously. I bought the coin primarily because I was keenly uncomfortable and felt like I would be being a real jerk if I didn't at least buy something. After all, this poor guy had suffered a genuine tragedy and I really felt sorry for him but I didn't know how to express it to this curmudgeonly stranger. I guess buying the coin soothed my conscience a little, and the price didn't seem overly ridiculous although it was more than double the price marked on the coin. When I got the coin home and could examine it at leisure, I discovered that it is 1897-P VAM-2, a subtle repunched-date variety that doesn't normally warrant a premium. The grade of the coin, however, according to a couple of other dealers who know Morgan Dollars much better than I, would probably come in at MS-62, MS-61 for certain, if I sent it to NGC or PCGS. This fact doesn't add much value to the coin.
I haven't asked Lenny Bird if he wants to give his side of the story yet because I hadn't told the full story until now. In addition, I decided not to quote any of the comments that readers left, because I didn't want to make anybody appear to be crass or insensitive, since people might feel a little differently had they known the rest of the story. While I don't think that Lenny's tragedy excuses his rude, unfriendly behavior, I am very reluctant to condemn him too harshly since I've never walked in his shoes. One thing is certain; I wasn't the only visitor to his table who found him to be rude. Here is a quote from a Collector's Universe Forum member called "Speety":
On a side note, dealers don't be fooled by someone's age. Once again I, who just turned 18, got a snooty response from a dealer when I asked to see an 1841 AU-58 seated dollar. The dealer, Lenny Bird, just replied with 'It's $2,800' twice when I asked to see the coin and didn't move a muscle to open the case. Now $2,800 isn't pocket change but when someone asks to see the coin you allow them to see the coin -- I certainly could have dropped $2,800 on the coin if I thought it was nice, but because of his BS attitude he lost a potential customer for good. (Here is a link to Speety's original post.)
So, this brings us to another Ethics question: Knowing what you know now, has your opinion of this event changed? Was Lenny justified in snatching the box out of my hands, and making a deal that excluded me, the person who presumably had current "claim" to an interest in buying the coins? Do you still feel as harshly towards him as you did when you left your comment last week? I think this discussion will shed some interesting light on human nature, and I look forward to hearing your responses.
Comments
Well I do feel like I have been set up a bit. I call it “crow bait.”
But with that said, we all walk through life and carry our own burdens. When those burdens become too heavy we need to seek a place of rest, if possible. But it is not always possible to abandon our business or social obligations. So at times we have all lashed out, or acted in a manner that we later regret.
In Larry’s case, perhaps, the coin business is his only contact with maintaining sanity after his son’s death. Apparently he bears a deep seated contempt for the naive, or those he considers petty and nit picky.(Amen) Perhaps that is his relief in life.
You’re not nit picky are you Susan?
Like I said before, I generally keep moving, but if someone really tics me off then I will have a response.
Will Rogers said: “I never met a man I didn’t like.” Personally I wish I had more of that in me. But the truth is, there are millions in this world, and to learn the deep secrets of each person is impossible. So we hold each person to act according to public protocol.
Best thing is, keep moving. Let Larry learn how to heal his own wounds or at least let those close to him help out.
But I would not be in favor of going to to central control to blow the whistle on bad behavoir by a dealer at a coin show unless there was a clear cut case of fraud committed.
BB
I don’t have much to add to this story now that the other side of the story is known. Like i said in my last statement, there are two sides to every story. gdnp brought that up in the last scenario.
I said i was brought up that way. Knowing there are always two sides to every story.
After hearing about this mans tragady. It’s time to move on and act like grown ups.
He does what he does, he is who is.
I would let it be.
I think the man need prayers more than ridicule at this juncture.
That’s my opinion. That’s where i leave it.
coiny
I feel deeply for the man, I too have lost a son, however if he had mourned enough to be at a coin show, then he should people with decently and respect as we all should. Lloyd
To quote Paul Harvey-”Now you know the rest of the story”. I feel for him for the tragic loss of his son, however people and potential customers (that may become repeat customers) do deserve respect.
Tragedy has a way of exposing true character. Now that I have heard the other side of the story, I am afraid I am less sympathetic.
If his behavior could be explained on the basis of a fear that Susan was trying to rob him, I would be understanding. But his boorish behavior in this case is unrelated. A cynic might argue that he is trying to exploit the situation for profit.
A coin dealer’s job was much easier when many had a local monopoly: if you wanted to buy or sell coins, they were the only game in town. Now they must compete with EBay, where buyers and sellers can cut them out of the loop. Like travel agents, they have to explain why we should buy from them when we can get the same thing cheaper off the internet.
The nature of the business is such that it is likely to attract a large number of, for the want of a better term, jerks. Sure, we want people who will deal with us ethically. But coin dealers make their money through arbitrage: they buy coins from one person at a low price and sell to another at a higher price. The lower the purchase price and the higher the selling price, the higher their margin. So the dealer who pays the little old lady 10 cents on the dollar for her husband’s collection is going to have a much easier job staying in business than the one that pays 75 cents on the dollar. If you feel guilty about ripping off little old ladies, you’d better find another line of work. But at least be polite while you try to rip me off.
Tragedy can make us bitter or make us a more gracious and humble person. We’ve all had experiences that impact us greatly. Obviously this man has been through one of the most painful things anyone could go through with the loss of a child. That said, I still think he should have treated you with more respect. I’m new to coin collecting and from the little I’ve experienced some of these dealers have an attitude problem.
Thank you to everyone who shared your thoughts. I wanted to weigh in a little bit more here for a couple of reasons. First, I forgot to address one aspect of the sale of the box of coins that some readers commented about in the original article, regarding whether the coin I later paid for had been sold twice. I do not believe this to be the case, since the sale was almost certainly based on counting the number of coins in the box and multiplying it by some average amount per coin. My coin wouldn’t have been counted in this scenario, since it was in my hand at the time. I somehow don’t picture Lenny Bird as being the sort of dealer who would just sell the box of coins for a flat price without some review of the contents, so the coin I had cannot have been assumed to have sold with the box.
Secondly, I realize that some readers feel like I was a little deceptive in the way I presented this scenario (because I withheld Lenny’s tragedy from my original account.) The fact is that my encounter with Lenny played out pretty much the same way I presented it here. I didn’t know he was “that” dealer until after the nasty bit of business had taken place. Had I tossed the remaining coin on the table and walked away, like most people probably would have done, I would never have known! The only reason I didn’t disclose the tragedy in the original article was because I didn’t want the tragedy to cloud the discussion of the ethical portion of who has first claim to coins for sale. On the other hand, I couldn’t, in good conscience, not mention this fact at all at some point, so it’s in the follow-up part.
Regarding gdnp’s comment about the coin dealing business attracting a certain type of character set, I have to agree wholeheartedly that this is one of the biggest problems in businesses like this one (which includes pawn brokers and antique dealers, among others.) The most successful dealers are also likely to be those most able to take advantage of people as a result of their innate ability to internally justify behavior that most of us would consider improper (such as taking financial advantage of elderly widows.) This is not to say that all successful dealers have this trait; some of them hire someone else to do the buying so they don’t have to face these thorny issues head-on. And there are certainly completely honest dealers who do very well, so we can’t blatantly stereotype here. However, it has been my observation after 30+ years of collecting coins, attending coin shows, and visiting innumerable local coin stores that far better than half, perhaps as many as three-quarters of the dealers I’ve met do not share my ethical viewpoints on dealing with customers.
Anybody who attends their first coin show, and feels that very uncomfortable sensation of all of the dealers staring at them from behind their little tables with hostile, beady eyes as if sizing up their financial status, will probably agree with my assessment. I’ve heard the “first coin show discomfort” story enough times to know it’s a real thing that many newcomers experience, and it shouldn’t be this way. This type of thing happens because of the sorts of men who are drawn to stand behind those little tables.
Susan Headley
About.com Guide to Coins
The full story of Lenny’s tragedy doesn’t cloud the discussion; it makes the whole context much clearer. You did set us up with the initial story, because you deliberately left out facts that were relevant to judging the situation–to wit, the dealer’s state of mind.
My prayers go out to Lenny and his family. He suffered a horrible tragedy that has apparently served to further embitter an already bitter man. How very sad.
That said, however, his behavior–and that of the other customer–was boorish and inconsiderate at best. My heart breaks for his loss, but suffering a loss does not give one license to flame others indiscriminately.
Some years ago, I also suffered the loss of a child, and I can tell you that during that time I engaged in some very inconsiderate behavior myself. Now, years later, I profoundly regret that, and I wish I could find certain people to ask for their forgiveness.
My tragedy, I am happy to say, was a catalyst for many improvements in my life, not the least of which was getting right with my Creator. I hope and pray the same will be true for Lenny.
So help me understnd why a coin dealer owes you anything???
He or she can decide how they want to treat their customers, and conversely you can decide to shop or not.
Isn’t it easier to jsut go away, vs blast someone on the internet???
I have known Mr. Bird for almost thirty years and I have never seen him act rude to any customer. Perhaps you see things from your point of view, but that is not necessarily the reality of what occurred !
You tell two versions of what happened yourself. Was it the other buyer that grabbed the box, or Mr. Bird ?
Sales move quickly at times, and perhaps you should have spoken up sooner, rather that venting your emotions here.
At auctions, you must bid to buy. You can’t tell us what you would have paid after the auction. Money has a way of speaking quit loudly. Try it next time !
Good luck.