Coin Dealer Ethics - Who's on First?
Wednesday April 23, 2008
This week's Coin Dealer Ethics column was inspired by an event that took place this past weekend at the Central States Numismatic Society (CSNS) annual convention and coin show, which was held in Chicago. This sort of thing seems to happen to me at practically every coin show I attend, although this particular instance of it was more extreme than usual. Here's what happened:
I was walking along a row of dealers' tables, eye-balling the offerings of the various sellers. Most of them had their material in glass cases or behind their counters, but a few had lower-cost boxes of slabbed coins or even 2x2s right up front where buyers could pick through them. Since the lower-cost coins are the only ones I can afford, I usually stop at such tables and have a look.
I don't know if this is just me, or whether most people share this opinion, but I find it extremely rude when someone starts reaching into the same box that I am looking through, especially if it's a small box, like a single- or double-row box of 2x2's. I never butt into anybody else's examination of these boxes, and in the situations where there are large cases or plastic bins of material where 2 or 3 people can easily pick through at the same time (e.g. hundreds or even thousands of coins,) I still always defer to the person who might already be there by asking, "Do you mind if I look, too?" Occasionally, someone who is methodically sorting through the stuff might ask that I wait, and I don't have any problem with this since they got there first. In the case of the smaller boxes, I simply politely wait my turn, and if someone looks like they're going to be awhile, I'll come back later if I really want to see the coins there.
What happened this time to annoy me so much was that I had money burning a hole in my pocket. I hadn't found much of anything I wanted to buy, so I had several hundred dollars looking for some coins that needed a nice home. I happened across a dealer who had several bags of bulk material on his table, priced as lots where you had to buy it all, not just pick things out. One of these bags had silver dollars in it, mostly Peace Dollars, but a few 1921 Morgans, also. As I was fondling the bag, trying to get a better idea of what was inside, I spied a 2x2 box of Morgans a few feet away at the same dealer's table. Since the bagged lot wasn't exactly "calling out" to me, I began looking through the 2x2s.
Each one of the Morgans in this box was AU or better. (AU stands for the coin grade About Uncirculated.) They were all common dates of the type that typically sell for bullion value (b.v.) plus a couple of dollars, even in AU and low Mint State grades (such as MS-60 to 62.) On the back of each 2x2 was a price, ranging from $14 to $19. There were a total of about 30 coins in this box, all very common date, all low MS and AU grades. The type of stuff that's going into the melting pot in large numbers right about now.
To be honest, I didn't expect the dealer to sell me BU Morgan Dollars for $14 each at the current price of silver. I did, however, take his prices as an indication that he was charging the b.v. plus small commission type of price, especially in light of the fact that he had whole bags of bulk-priced material on his tables. This seemed to be a dealer who seriously wanted to move some merchandise, so I think my mental summation of the situation was perfectly logical, under the circumstances.
I started looking through the box of the AU/MS Morgans and doing some mental addition, planning to make an offer for the whole box, since this was the sort of thing I had hoped to find, and the implied prices seemed to fit within my burning budget, assuming about $20 a coin. I had been at this for less than five minutes when another buyer approached the table and started looking at things. He saw the bulk-priced bag of mostly mid-grade Peace Dollars, and took a good look at the contents. Then he noticed the box that I was looking through. He reached right in between my fingers practically and extricated a coin. He announced that this was exactly what he was looking for, and that he wanted to buy the whole box. The dealer took the box right out of my hands and placed in front of this new customer and said, "make me an offer."
Of course I spoke up immediately and said that I was here first, and that I was planning on doing exactly that same thing, making an offer on the whole box. The dealer pulled the other guy away from my earshot and after a whispered conversation, some money changed hands and the guy walked off with the box of Morgans. Twice I tried to butt into the conversation, first pleading with the dealer to hear my offer, and then appealing to the customer for fairness ("how would you feel if I just walked up and snatched some coins out of your hand while you were considering them?") and was ignored on both counts. I have no idea what the guy actually paid for the coins.
It was only after the guy walked away with his new purchase that I realized I was still holding one of the Morgans in my hand! The price on the back of this 1897-P BU Morgan Dollar's 2x2 said $14, and the grade was MS-60. Although I was extremely irritated at this turn of events, I'm also the type of person who doesn't generally let anger or the heat of the moment cloud my judgement (although I can get really mad later. I guess I'm the "slow-burner" type.) I hadn't purchased anything at this show yet, and I was about to leave for the day, and here I am holding a very nice-looking (and affordable!) Morgan Dollar, so I asked the dealer what the price was.
I have to confess, the dealer was quite nasty to me, even after his rude behavior of a moment ago. He snarled out a price of "about $30." I was surprised at this, since the $14 price tag on the coin was quite a distance away from this quote he was giving me, and I just figured that maybe he didn't want to sell the coin to me at all for some reason. (I've never had any transactions with this dealer before although I've seen him at several large shows.) I pointed out the $14 price tag and asked him why he had this price on his coin if he wasn't planning to honor it and his reply was something along the lines of, "You must be stupid or something. The price of the bullion in that coin is higher than $14."
At this point, the guy had finally filled up my B.S. quota, and I was about to tell him to take his coin and his attitude and insert it into a certain warm, humid, and dark anatomical location, when he added, "I'll sell the coin at Grey Sheet Bid, that's fair, isn't it?" (The Grey Sheet is the main price guide most coin dealers use, which is published weekly. These prices are wholesale prices and generally very fair when offered to a retail customer.) I asked him why he had a $14 price on the coin if he wasn't honoring that price (or something reasonably close to it, adjusted for daily market fluctuations in our very active market right now.) He claimed that the price must have been put there by a previous owner (but he never went so far as to apologize for the misunderstanding about it.) Since this guy seemed to be answering questions now, I took a shot at the ol' "Why did you let that last guy buy that box of coins even though I was here first and had expressed an interest in them and offered to bid? Wouldn't it make sense to take the highest offer between us?" (This is really beside the point; I feel I should have had first refusal, period, but we can argue that in the "comments" section below.)
The nasty edge returned to this guy's voice, and he asked, "Look lady, do you want the coin or not? It's $29." (By this time, he'd opened up the Grey Sheet and gotten the price.) I really did come very, very close to telling this guy off, but I dug into my purse and found the $29 because it was a really nice coin and I didn't want to go home from the show empty-handed.
What do you think about this transaction? Am I being overly selfish by thinking that I should have the right to finish looking through a small coin box before the next guy comes along and buys it out from under me? Maybe this dealer is just a poor example of his profession? (If so, his behavior is not at all uncommon, in either the surliness nor the lack of respect given to first-time customers.) Please share your thoughts via the "comments" link below, and next week we'll have a look at some of your responses. I'm also inclined to disclose who the dealer is in next week's recap, so guesses are welcome. ;)
I was walking along a row of dealers' tables, eye-balling the offerings of the various sellers. Most of them had their material in glass cases or behind their counters, but a few had lower-cost boxes of slabbed coins or even 2x2s right up front where buyers could pick through them. Since the lower-cost coins are the only ones I can afford, I usually stop at such tables and have a look.
I don't know if this is just me, or whether most people share this opinion, but I find it extremely rude when someone starts reaching into the same box that I am looking through, especially if it's a small box, like a single- or double-row box of 2x2's. I never butt into anybody else's examination of these boxes, and in the situations where there are large cases or plastic bins of material where 2 or 3 people can easily pick through at the same time (e.g. hundreds or even thousands of coins,) I still always defer to the person who might already be there by asking, "Do you mind if I look, too?" Occasionally, someone who is methodically sorting through the stuff might ask that I wait, and I don't have any problem with this since they got there first. In the case of the smaller boxes, I simply politely wait my turn, and if someone looks like they're going to be awhile, I'll come back later if I really want to see the coins there.
What happened this time to annoy me so much was that I had money burning a hole in my pocket. I hadn't found much of anything I wanted to buy, so I had several hundred dollars looking for some coins that needed a nice home. I happened across a dealer who had several bags of bulk material on his table, priced as lots where you had to buy it all, not just pick things out. One of these bags had silver dollars in it, mostly Peace Dollars, but a few 1921 Morgans, also. As I was fondling the bag, trying to get a better idea of what was inside, I spied a 2x2 box of Morgans a few feet away at the same dealer's table. Since the bagged lot wasn't exactly "calling out" to me, I began looking through the 2x2s.
Each one of the Morgans in this box was AU or better. (AU stands for the coin grade About Uncirculated.) They were all common dates of the type that typically sell for bullion value (b.v.) plus a couple of dollars, even in AU and low Mint State grades (such as MS-60 to 62.) On the back of each 2x2 was a price, ranging from $14 to $19. There were a total of about 30 coins in this box, all very common date, all low MS and AU grades. The type of stuff that's going into the melting pot in large numbers right about now.
To be honest, I didn't expect the dealer to sell me BU Morgan Dollars for $14 each at the current price of silver. I did, however, take his prices as an indication that he was charging the b.v. plus small commission type of price, especially in light of the fact that he had whole bags of bulk-priced material on his tables. This seemed to be a dealer who seriously wanted to move some merchandise, so I think my mental summation of the situation was perfectly logical, under the circumstances.
I started looking through the box of the AU/MS Morgans and doing some mental addition, planning to make an offer for the whole box, since this was the sort of thing I had hoped to find, and the implied prices seemed to fit within my burning budget, assuming about $20 a coin. I had been at this for less than five minutes when another buyer approached the table and started looking at things. He saw the bulk-priced bag of mostly mid-grade Peace Dollars, and took a good look at the contents. Then he noticed the box that I was looking through. He reached right in between my fingers practically and extricated a coin. He announced that this was exactly what he was looking for, and that he wanted to buy the whole box. The dealer took the box right out of my hands and placed in front of this new customer and said, "make me an offer."
Of course I spoke up immediately and said that I was here first, and that I was planning on doing exactly that same thing, making an offer on the whole box. The dealer pulled the other guy away from my earshot and after a whispered conversation, some money changed hands and the guy walked off with the box of Morgans. Twice I tried to butt into the conversation, first pleading with the dealer to hear my offer, and then appealing to the customer for fairness ("how would you feel if I just walked up and snatched some coins out of your hand while you were considering them?") and was ignored on both counts. I have no idea what the guy actually paid for the coins.
It was only after the guy walked away with his new purchase that I realized I was still holding one of the Morgans in my hand! The price on the back of this 1897-P BU Morgan Dollar's 2x2 said $14, and the grade was MS-60. Although I was extremely irritated at this turn of events, I'm also the type of person who doesn't generally let anger or the heat of the moment cloud my judgement (although I can get really mad later. I guess I'm the "slow-burner" type.) I hadn't purchased anything at this show yet, and I was about to leave for the day, and here I am holding a very nice-looking (and affordable!) Morgan Dollar, so I asked the dealer what the price was.
I have to confess, the dealer was quite nasty to me, even after his rude behavior of a moment ago. He snarled out a price of "about $30." I was surprised at this, since the $14 price tag on the coin was quite a distance away from this quote he was giving me, and I just figured that maybe he didn't want to sell the coin to me at all for some reason. (I've never had any transactions with this dealer before although I've seen him at several large shows.) I pointed out the $14 price tag and asked him why he had this price on his coin if he wasn't planning to honor it and his reply was something along the lines of, "You must be stupid or something. The price of the bullion in that coin is higher than $14."
At this point, the guy had finally filled up my B.S. quota, and I was about to tell him to take his coin and his attitude and insert it into a certain warm, humid, and dark anatomical location, when he added, "I'll sell the coin at Grey Sheet Bid, that's fair, isn't it?" (The Grey Sheet is the main price guide most coin dealers use, which is published weekly. These prices are wholesale prices and generally very fair when offered to a retail customer.) I asked him why he had a $14 price on the coin if he wasn't honoring that price (or something reasonably close to it, adjusted for daily market fluctuations in our very active market right now.) He claimed that the price must have been put there by a previous owner (but he never went so far as to apologize for the misunderstanding about it.) Since this guy seemed to be answering questions now, I took a shot at the ol' "Why did you let that last guy buy that box of coins even though I was here first and had expressed an interest in them and offered to bid? Wouldn't it make sense to take the highest offer between us?" (This is really beside the point; I feel I should have had first refusal, period, but we can argue that in the "comments" section below.)
The nasty edge returned to this guy's voice, and he asked, "Look lady, do you want the coin or not? It's $29." (By this time, he'd opened up the Grey Sheet and gotten the price.) I really did come very, very close to telling this guy off, but I dug into my purse and found the $29 because it was a really nice coin and I didn't want to go home from the show empty-handed.
What do you think about this transaction? Am I being overly selfish by thinking that I should have the right to finish looking through a small coin box before the next guy comes along and buys it out from under me? Maybe this dealer is just a poor example of his profession? (If so, his behavior is not at all uncommon, in either the surliness nor the lack of respect given to first-time customers.) Please share your thoughts via the "comments" link below, and next week we'll have a look at some of your responses. I'm also inclined to disclose who the dealer is in next week's recap, so guesses are welcome. ;)
Comments
That is humorous but annoying at the same time. Coin dealers can be pretty callous with day in and day out haggling over coins.
My bet the guy is a jerk most of the time and probably should get a job being a dog catcher or something like that.
But I double dog dare you to name who he is on this comment board!
I usually just keep walking, but if someone really tics me off I usually think of something on the spur of the moment to say, so it is hard to imagine what I would have said or done in your situation.
To me people are more important than little round disks of metal, we call coins. Many times I have refused to sell coins to disrespectful people and on the other hand have given steep discounts that were not asked for to really nice people. (I don’t buy or sell anymore to speak of.)
But the coin business often attracts certain types of unsavory characters that are only after the easy buck. Just keep walking. The coin is meaningless if you have to buy it from the devil.
BB
I’ve had a coin dealer treat me like that on e-bay! He also want as far as to threaten me! Some people are such jokes! I wouldn’t have given him any of your money! After 5 threats on ebay from this person I said that I would rather not do business with this person but they wouldn’t let me out of my bid ! I tried not to do business with a person like that!
This type of behavior is not uncommon especially at Christmas time in the big department stores & such, so it doesn’t surprise me to hear about it going on at a coin show, either.
I believe you handled the situation properly, but I’m here to tell ya that it’d been a cold day in hell before I’d a purchased anything from him!
Just my opinion.
Sounds to me like you were treated in this fashion largely because you’re a woman, which makes it even worse in my opinion. I’ve noticed several times at coin shows that male dealers (and the vast majority are males)- and especially “old timers” seem to have this attitude that coin collecting and trading is a mans hobby. Frankly, I think this attitude is holding back our hobby in a big way. Look around you at any coin show, coin shop, or even at a coin club meeting. What do you see? Almost exclusively male participants. Being a single man around 50, I would be delighted to meet a woman who shares my interest in the hobby, but in Indianapolis, IN I have yet to make the acquantance of such a person. Attitudes like this dealers are certainly not helping to bring new collectors (male OR female) into our hobby, which is sad. The more of us there are, the higher the values will climb. Isn’t that what any dealer/collector should want to see happen?? Drop this guys name - please - for all of our benefit. I want to make sure I don’t spend a dime at his booth!
The dealer and the guy that snatched the coins right from under you are both jerks. You were right to be irritated.
You should come south to shop next time where you will find some more gentlemanly folks.
That dealer was not only rude but flat out stupid. Who wouldn’t want two interested parties bidding over the same merchandise, with the possibility of paying a little too much just to get it? I’d avoid him in the future no matter what he has.
Harley Mike is right, the guy wasn’t rude to the other (male) patron, right? Must be a misogynist. Do tell his name!!
Thats just plain rude. People these days don’t have any manners and I’m not just talking coin wise.
My husband and I had a bad time once with some guy yelling at someone who, yes wasn’t being profesional, but I don’t think it gave him the right to yell and curse the guy out.
So yeah me, I would have left the coin there because it wouldn’t be worth everything he put you through
That “dealer” sounds more like a “huster”. It could be that he saw you as simply taking too much time (You didn’t say if and what you were talking with him about while you looked.), thus potentially losing him the other nearly sure sale in the process if that other guy walked away rather than waiting for you to finish. It also appears that your feminine gender may have cemented that position in his mind. I’ve seen over the years that most women are simply thriftier than most men. We waste money. . .something the dealer would love! So, he probably thought you were wasting his table space from the moment you walked up. He IS in it for the money only, obviously. As far as the other buyer is concerned, his having reached over you like that, etc., was quite rude and indicative of yet another male-chauvanist. I’d like to have seen if he’d have done that to a man his size. . .less likely! You were correct in your entire handling of the situation, and I applaud the fact that you didn’t snap at a show–with children–over those so-called “little, round discs of metal”. The only thing you might have done better was to have told the dealer your intentions immediately after introducing yourself to him upon your arrival. If he knew you had a couple C-notes to spend and that you indeed were interested in those Morgans, he at least would have given you some prices up-front without you having to assume that the labels were correct, as they often are not. Dealers hardly ever reprice such coins, as they have thousands of them, and the prices of silver coins are wrong as soon as they are written on them. Remember: Good communication skills and common courtesy usually forestall such situations. In the end, however, you came-out ahead by going home with most of your cash, rather than rewarding that jerk’s behavior by buying “junk” Morgans, which SHOULD go to the melting pot, so the surviving specimens will rise in value down the road.
That is exactly why I have never attended a “big” show. Seems the cross-section of people is the same, regardless. Being relatively new to the world of coins, I give almost anybody a shot, but 1 only. I have found 4 of 20 sources (so far) that I rate excellent; others rate from unacceptable to outright fraud.
I have to agree with Biddlesbank-No way would I have bought that coin! Yes-I’m sure gender had something to do with it, just like a myriad of other hobbies we’ve been ignored in by some. And yes-it does effect the hobby in a negative way!
I wouldn’t have bought the coin from him, either. He has no incentive to be fair or courteous if we buy from him anyway in such situations.
Remember in “Pretty Woman” when Julia Roberts went back and told the rude clerk “big mistake?” Too bad you couldn’t have done something like that, let him know that he missed out on several hundred dollars worth of sales (even if you had to exaggerate a bit) by being such a jerk.
Just a thought - didn’t the coin “technically” belong to the man who had just bought the entire box? It was part of the box, right? It had already been paid for (hmmm…) - so the dealer sold it twice!
I think you did the right thing by not escalating the situation after the box of Morgans were sold to the other customer. I on the other hand am not so sure I could have bit my tongue and would have surely butted in the transaction with the other guy. INSISTENTLY!!
I would have complained to the show’s organizer. If there are enough complaints from buyers the organizer should ban the dealer from its events. You showed a lot more restraint than I would have.
The one thing I disagree with you on is that you bought the single coin from him. With all that went on before, you shouldn’t have rewarded his poor behaviour by doing business with him. It doesn’t sound as though it was such a rare coin that you had to have that one; you could have found something equally good in the future. Just not worth it in my opinion.
Incidentally, the guy who purchased the box of coins had already paid for the one in your hand. It was no longer the dealer’s to sell. Apparently, the buyer had given it to you as a gift to apologize for his rudeness. The coin was already yours or should have gone to the buyer of the box of coins.
I started as a bullion investor several years ago and now I’m starting to collect coins with my children. As a new collector one of my disappointments has been the attitude of many dealers. Please post this guys name so I know to stay away from him when I attend my first coin show.
I think that both men were rude. I also think that the buyer of the coins could have been another dealer who had had transactions with the dealer at the table before, therefore he was given priority. Nonetheless, it is still incredibly crass to barge in on someone else who is looking through a box of coins, and then buy all those coins while the other person is still looking at them!
If you ever come to Japan, please visit a Japanese coin show– I think your experience would be much more pleasant.
Leaving aside the question of who owned the morgan you bought, this really seems to be a question of etiquette more than ethics. Presumably, the dealer had sized you up and decided that you were unlikely to make a credible offer on the Morgans, and thus the most profitable use of his time was to sell it to the other buyer with minimal haggling, without allowing you a chance to offer. Of course, that may have been part of his private negotiation with the other buyer: “$350–one time offer. If you go back to the pushy broad and try to start a bidding war forget it.”
Were these two gentlemen rude? Yep. Unethical? Marginal at best. The dealer made a snap decision on what would bring him the best profit with the least hassle. Whether this is a good long term business strategy or not is questionable.
BTW, this is one of the major reasons I don’t attend coin shows. I despise haggling, and don’t like sales people looking over my shoulder while I contemplate my purchases. I much prefer buying at auction where I can offer what I think something is worth without feeling like I am personally offending the seller.
I frequently take my children (ages 3, 7 & 11) to coin shows and I have taught them how to behave on the bourse room floor. I have taught my eleven year old son how to properly and respectfully negotiate with dealers and how to participate in auctions. My three year old daughter knows enough not to lean on the cases and will ask to see a coin before she touches it. She and I are building a type set collection together and she can identify most of the U.S. coin series beginning from the mid-1800’s (yes, this is my 3 year old daughter!). When (or “if”) she seriously becomes interested in coin collecting, she will be well educated and will be able to handle herself in this male-dominated (and sometimes prejudice) hobby/industry. Also, the fact that she has five brothers makes her one-tough-cookie
I have witnessed (with my children) dealers such as this one. Experience has taught me that rude, callous, bad-mannered and insensitive dealers serve two purposes in life:
1. Dealers like this one provide me with examples so I can teach my children how NOT to behave.
2. If it wasn’t for the “bad dealers”, the first-rate, polite, considerate and bighearted dealers wouldn’t look as good as the do. (please sense the mild sarcasm in this statement)
If the dealer is reading this article, my children are available and would be willing to give you lessons on how to behave on the bourse room floor.
The only way to handle dealers like this one is to walk away and not spend your money at their table. I would rather walk out of a show empty-handed then to help sustain a rude, callous, bad-mannered and insensitive dealer with a purchase. If enough people walk away from them (no matter how good a deal they are passing up) he will either changes his ways or end up going out of business. Please do tell us who this dealer is so we will all know about him.
Add me to the list of people who would rather leave empty handed than do business with someone so rude. You had every right to be offended by such bad behavior. PLEASE post the name of the dealer so I’ll know who to avoid. Here in the South, the proportion of honest dealers to those in it for the buck is in my experience 60/40 against the honest ones. And the majority of that bad 60% I find at coin shows. I would also report them to the Bourse Chair as most of them I have found are very customer oriented and would take action against dealers like this.
I would not only have been annoyed. I would have included his name specifically in your column, and then sent him your mass email.
I will be attending the long beach show next month please post his name!
I would also like to know his name, although mostly what I would like to hear is his side of the story. I admit that they sound indefensible, but I would still be interested in his spin…
As an aside, I agree with those who say that they would not do business with a rude dealer. I feel the same way when purchasing coins on EBay. I have purchased hundreds of coins, and returned less than 1%. That being said, I will not bid on coins from a dealer that uses impolite, combative language or has a restrictive return policy.
There are plenty of coins out there, and I see no reason to do business with jerks.
sadly, nothing i can print here would have been my parting words to this person.i go to many shows and it does not take long to size people up. my 16 year old son goes with me and i especially watch how they react to a new member such as he. some are thrilled and some act like he is there to rob the place. guess where our money is spent!!
So far it has been my experience men in the coin world do not take women very seriously. I’ve had them try to sell me jewelry instead of the coin I was looking at!
Sounds like this dealer and Mr. Rude may have done business before and the dealer wasn’t about to mess with future sales. I have previously bought/sold sports cards on the net. There was a list of unsavory dealers and customers available by subscription and it was a handy tool. Go ahead and name the dealer, but be careful not to slander and offer him a chance to reply.
You handled it like a Champ! I probably wouldn’t have. Since I’m a ‘novice’, no shows under the belt yet, this is gut reaction. First, I would have told the seller the amount I was willing to spend; second, I would have reported his behaviour to whoever was in charge and have told the dealer who you are and that you were going to report his behaviour to the ‘local’ as well as expose him in your column. I would not have given him the time of day, let alone buy anything from him.
You, unfortunately, have to give him equal air time, a chance to respond.
Cathy (new Morgan collector)
I would like to thank everyone who has responded so far! You have all made some excellent observations and suggestions, and I am going to try to contact the dealer and ask him if he’d like to provide his side of things.
Two brief points: (1) Next week, in the follow-up, I will explain why I actually bought the coin. As Paul Harvey would say, you’ll get “the rest of the story” then. (2) I would like to answer several points, such as my views on announcing to coin dealers right up-front how much I plan to spend (and why I think this is a bad idea) but I’ll save that for the follow-up also.
In the meantime, I am finding everyone’s feedback fascinating, and I look forward to seeing more observations. Does anybody want to guess who the dealer is? From what I understand he’s well-known to be an ill-tempered type of person.
Susan Headley
About.com Guide to Coins
Hi Sue,
I love the weekly insight! I, personally, would not have a person reach across and take anything I was interested in out of my reach. I deal in steel and my forearms are popeye-ish.
My BSME and welding prowess aside, money talks, the first with the wad of cash gets the deal. Period. Lookers are lookers until they become Buyers.
What an Adam Henry. To bad you couldn’t report this guy to the Attorney General’s Office - consumer protection division. But you should never have bought anything from him. He did not deserve your business. You paid more than twice what you had expected to pay for the coin. And the jerk who reached in the box between your fingers was his twin brother. Thanks for the great newsletter. I love it!
John
# 12 - Good catch Elena! If the dealer knew that he sold it twice? What is that saying about - character?
Susan! I think next time before you dig inboxes. Extend your hand in friendship, let the dealer know about your intentions beforehand. This way he knows your not wateing his time, but are a potential client.
If he treats you like crap afterward, walk away. On your way out, let as many people know to steer clear of the coin nazi. You deserve the same respect as any body else.
Theres no laws against being a jerk. There is though about getting mugged. Sounds like you got mugged.
What decient person wouldn’t be offended?
But you got what you wanted. To bad the other guy paid for it too.
coiny
Hmm… I think mugged is a bit harsh. Nothing was stolen from Susan. The other buyer acted with the consent of the owner of the coins, who has a fair amount of discretion in doing what he likes.
I will not speculate about the name of the dealer. Even if I knew many, which I don’t, I would hate to guess wrong and publicly libel an innocent party.
I will, however, speculate about his motivation. If he replies, and I doubt he will, he will claim “Susan was pawing through my coins, taking her time, blocking access for more serious customers, and only really showed any interest once the other guy came. He made me an offer on the spot that was too good to turn down, so I took it. It’s a rough business, and I can’t afford to risk losing a sale because someones feelings might get hurt.”
I know Susan has written about the ettiquite of searching through coin boxes before. I think that there has to be some flexibility. If it’s quiet, the dealer may be willing to give you all the time you want to cherry pick. If it’s busy, he may be tempted to push the small fry along with hopes that their spot will be taken by a big spender. To most of us $300 is a lot of money, but to the dealer it may be relatively small potatos.
I really enjoy the column and appreciate the information I receive. While reading the comments this week I have to admit to getting side-tracked by the comments of Dave Egeland. He would appear to be cut from the same cloth as the dealer you had problems with. I never realized AU & low MS morgans were JUNK! And that they should all be melted so his collection of high-end Morgans can appreciate? Give me a break, what an elitist attitude! I hate to be the one to break it to him, but not every kid starting up his collection can afford $500 Morgan dollars. This attitude makes me as mad as dealing with the type of dealer you describe in your column. Anyway, please print your problem dealers name so when we see him at a show we can tell him why we won’t be doing business at his table! Keep up the good work..
CDW
I admire your restraint. Boorish behavior is boorish behavior, regardless of whether or not the dealer in question thought he could make a bigger buck with the other guy.
I also agree with the many who said that they would not buy a coin from this joker. Why? Well, let’s see. He insults you, treats you like dirt, has no apparent interest in your money—and you REWARD that behavior?
He should definitely be reported to the show organizers, and to the world at large. It would be a public service to put his name out there.
Great column, btw.
I agree, the dealer was a jerk. I certainly wouldn’t have given him any business.
I had a situation at a show last year. Was trying to sell several NGC graded Lincolns. I asked a dealer if he was interested and he made a comment about them being “junk.” Wanting to educate myself, I inquired why they were junk. He snapped back at me, “I’m not interested” and turned around & walked away from me. I regret that I didn’t get his name and report him. I agree that the only way to get this behavior stopped is to report it to the folks that run the shows.
Hi gdnp. Yeah harsh … maybe. When you stop to think about it, everything was taken right out of Susans hands. I don’t think many of the men here would let that slide as easy. I remember some guy reaching inside my vehicle, he had a reason, which he didn’t tell me. He darn near lost his arm. It was more a knee jerk reaction to protect my stuff. Namely my ignition key. Am i compareing apples to oranges? I don’t know. The feeling is the same, when a stranger invades your space. Behind the counter is the dealers space. Other side of the counter is a public venue basicly, on private property. What if the guy knocked Susan off her feet? Ya know! In his haste to grab and run. I bet there would have been a bigger stink than hurt feelings, afterwards.
If a person can’t enjoy them selves at a coin show, and this kind of thing spreads. There will be less people visiting them for that reason. They ruin it for the good guys. The money should have nothing to do with it, but it does. It’s all about the money … that’s their business. BUT the customer is always right. Right? Big pockets, small pockets.
coiny
As others have said, Thanks for the great column. This is a little off target, but I feel could be relevent. I buy coins on-line and have had very good experiences doing so. That said, I just ran into the on-line aution seller from Hell. His ad stated no duplicates and all grade good or better. I received several dups, and some others with the dates worn off. He said he would rectify, but that’s the last I heard from him. Auction site, Overstock.com took down the negative feedback I had left. So I want all to know Overstock.com and the guy from COAL TOWNSHIP, PA should be avoided.
I would not have bought the coin from that man.
Obviously, there is more to this story and it is not likely that we will really know the dealer’s side of the story. However, this appears to be a classic bait and switch. The dealer should have honored the prices marked on the coins regardless of value. It is strange that Susan and the other buyer were willing to pay a higher amount. The only reason I can imagine anyone paying nearly double the price marked was to have proof of this illegal activity.
I would have moved on as soon as the box was snatched from me by the dealer and I probably would have reported they suspected bait and switch activity to the show management for them to investigate. I do believe that show management is responsible for attracting, maintaining and policing ethical and honest dealers. In other words, they cannot let one rotten apple spoil the whole barrel.
I just read the story again. I am a long time reader of Susan’s webpage and I would be willing to bet that Susan walked away with a coin that is worth more than $29.
I’m thinking maybe your right # 40 … Jim.
I’ll take a guess. It must be a carson city minted Morgan. With a low mintage.
;-0
coiny
Okay I finally figured it out. These were a box of counterfeit TPG slabs. When the dealer recognized Susan he signaled a buddy who came to his rescue and ran off with the box.
Now all Susan has to do is check to make sure the one she accidently wound up with matches up with the TPG data base.
After careful investigation, if she is 100% certain it matches the TPG data base, including the grade, then this theory falls apart. But if the grade is off, or the coin looks suspect, then it time to refigure the whole scenario.
BB
Interesting theories on why Susan bought the coin. I assume she will fill us in. I’m guessing it was a VAM. The dealer would have been unlikely to miss a low mintage coin. I do like the theory that the slabs were counterfeit. That is something that (might) get a dealer kicked out.
For those that think that a dealer who is paying for space at a coin show is going to get kicked out for rude behavior–I don’t think so. It ain’t gonna happen. A dealer has much more clout than a customer. Without dealers, no show. Dealers should be kicked out for criminal behavior and shunned for rude behavior.
Coiny, as to the “mugging” issue. I agree that the other customer had no right to remove a box of coins from Susan’s hands. She would have been perfectly within her rights to resist. The dealer, however, as the owner of the coins could have at his discretion taken his property from Susan and given it to the other customer if he felt that Susan was not serious and the other guy was. Which is why I would like to hear the dealer’s side.
Retail like this is a nasty business. A dealer wants customers who will come in, size up the goods, make an offer, and and either purchase or move on, thus opening up a space for other customers. He doesn’t want people who spend hours pawing through coins only to make a low ball offer on a $30 coin. Clearly, this was not Susan’s intention, but my guess is that this was the dealer’s “read” of the situation.
I have bought alot of coins in my time but does that seller doesnt sound right.
gdnp: I agree, i was brought up that way, knowing there ARE two sides to every story. It would be interesting to hear the other guys story. And the reason for his rude attitude. I doubt that anyone would like being treated that way. Including the dealer himself.
After all, this is America! Every one has a right to face their acusser. In theorey. What was - ain’t no more.
coiny
I have known Mr. Bird for almost thirty years and I have never seen him act rudely to any customer. Perhaps you see things from your point of view, but that is not necessarily the reality of what occurred !
You tell two versions of what happened yourself. Was it the other buyer that grabbed the box, or Mr. Bird ?
Sales move quickly at times, and perhaps you should have spoken up sooner, rather that venting your emotions here.
At auctions, you must bid to buy. You can’t tell us what you would have paid after the auction. Money has a way of speaking quite loudly. Try it next time !
Good luck.