Inside a Chinese Coin Counterfeiting Ring
Wednesday April 2, 2008
Have you ever wondered what an illegal coin minting operation looks like? Are you curious about how the Chinese are making all of those fake coins we have been seeing recently? If so, the Chinese Coin Counterfeiting photo gallery will interest you. There are photos of the coin presses they use, the fake coin dies they make, and the actual coins they strike. I have added some commentary where I was able to get information about the processes, but as you can probably imagine, my sources aren't exactly being forthcoming about this information.Some of the photos in this gallery surfaced in coin collecting discussion forums earlier this year. I would like to acknowledge the anonymous owner of the BiddlesBank.com Web site for leading me to these photos, and for providing information that got me started tracking them all the way down to their Chinese sources. It is obvious that this Chinese counterfeiting operation is a large scale endeavor that is flooding thousands of fake coins into our coin collecting marketplace every month. As the photos will reveal, these fakes are dangerous, high-quality specimens that will fool all but the most observant collectors.
Although there are more than 80 photos in the set, many of them are similar in nature, so I have posted a broad range of image types to give you an idea of the huge scope and expertise of this operation. I haven't yet found any evidence that this particular ring is manufacturing the fake PCGS and NGC slabs, but it is a virtual certainty that the high-quality counterfeit coins this ring is making are finding their way into these top grading service holders.
Please share your thoughts about this Chinese counterfeiting ring via the "comments" link below. To stay informed about the important news and information related to coin collecting, please join my free weekly About Coins newsletter.
Comments
Susan: That unknown machine, it looks like a coin counter. There is a hopper of coins in the center. To the left an open bag. In front of the woman in the photo, she apears to be getting the bags ready to close up for shippment in bag form. I suppose the coins shoot out to the left and fall into the open bag. After some study of it, that’s about all i can figure out. There dosen’t seem to be much of a good use for it.
A comment on those morgan silver dollars.
They look to thick, and the reeding is of poor quality, compaired to real morgans. Only someone familar with coins may not be fooled by them.
One thing i find odd about this is the fact, if this is coming out of communist china. Then it is with the full support of the chinese communist government. So what are these sneaky sob’s up to?
Funding their army by undermining our economy? Heads lituarally rolled after the lead paint on toys fiasco that was made in china. It made china look bad in their production and quality control, to the world. Human beings paid a stiff price for those mistakes. These same crooks doing the minting would be doing so under the penalty of death were they to be caught. I can’t see them risking death. For minting coins. I don’t think the same profit is there as an incentive to risk death, unless it is sanctioned by the red army as a profit maker for them selves.
Just a thought that ran through my head.
coiny
Thank for the information. I always wondered how the producrs of fake coins really work, I mean they must have the necessary equipment (presses), dies and so on. Undoubtedly such illegal business is huge nowadays and it’s certainly not easy to track it to the source. Look forward to see some more images on those fakes. What is really amazing is that these fakes are sold on eBay. Do they really look like the genuine coins?
Susan:
With respect to Photo 6 (The Unknown machine), I believe that this is used to apply the edge reeding on the coins.
Notice the movement of the arm and the coins position in the machine. Only thing that would make contact with the coins would be along the edge, and then the coin would be ejected to the left into the bag.
Just an obsevation
Scott
Just so you know Susan…If you got any info on this from “Biddlesbank”, he stole the photo’s and the story from a kid on Ebay. I heard the kid did it as part of a school project and BB stole it all and then tried to make it appear that it was HIS discovery and never gave the kid any credit. I don’t know about you but I don’t like people that take credit for other peoples work.
Coiny and Scott,
Thank you both for the ideas on what the mysterious coining machine might be. When I find out for certain, I’ll let everyone know. =)
As for Waite, thank you for sharing the information regarding the possible source of BiddleBank’s (BB’s) photos. According to BB, he first saw them in a CU thread, to which he gave me the link, but whatever his source was, I am absolutely certain that the original source is not a student posting his reports on eBay. Eight of these photos have been making the rounds of the numismatic discussion boards since January, and I painstakingly traced their origin back to their source in China (the source is proud of them and gave me his name for the photo credits in addition to all 80+ photos in the series.) Furthermore, the photos are all date-stamped during a 2-hour period on August 10, 2006, so these counterfeits have been being produced in large numbers for awhile now.
I earnestly wish I’d become aware of this source sooner. He’s very helpful! =)
Susan Headley
About.com Guide to Coins
Susan,
Is anything being done by our government to stop the import of these fakes? By Customs? Better yet the Secret Service? It is their job to prosecute such activities in the US. As a collector it is upsetting to me finding out the US is being flooded by high quality fakes.
I have read all the junk you folks write. The funny thing of this all is that you all miss this is happening everyday (counterfeiting coins). It happens all around the world. Who cares who gets credit and who is banned from boards? Susan took the time to research the counterfeiting and yes IT HURTS US ALL THAT COLLECT COINS. I think there is too much animosity with you folks, stick to the message. Counterfeiting is billion-dollar business, tell me that’s not worth taking a chance???
Once you all pull your heads out of your ??? Then post on this real problem
Man, what a bunch of tripe! Susan posted an article on counterfeiting to alert the public, and she is lambasted as a shill or trying to destroy PCGS. PCGS own inaction in the face of this growing problem will destroy itself, no need for a person with a website to bring down an “empire”. As one who travels on business overseas,and an avid collector, I have seen these fake coins in fake PCGS slabs for sale in China; and for those of you who think the Chinese govt. will come down with an iron fist, think again. Many reatail stores and strip malls are selling these in the open. It isn’t rocket science to come up with an injeciton molded type slab identical to PCGS own, i’m surprised it took them this long! Also, the counterfeiters are also talking about taking authentic “widget” MS63-64 Morgans, Peace, Walkers, etc and putting them into fake PCGS MS65 holders. With grade inflation being rampant these last few years, as long as the slab is very close to the real deal, tons of these will find new homes in the US. IF PCGS doesn’t design a new anti-counterfeit slab, akin to the one NGC has been working on, then they will see their market share and respect drop considerably. I’m just glad i don’t own any shares of stock in this mess.
Does anyone remember:
The Chinese Counterfeiting Ring?
I think that was what the initial thread was supposed to be about.
Thanks for the pics & general info about this matter. Not all of us are as astute as others with regards to the coin world so bringing information like this to the forefront is helpful, regardless of who gets the credit for it.
Yes, I have been following the string for several days now & it took an abrupt turn south at about comment #4 and since then has done nothing to benefit anyone about the subject at hand.
Just an observation…
I want to post a clarification regarding some of the comments in this thread, (to which the three comments above this one refer in passing.)
A few people strenuously objected to my crediting BiddlesBank.com as the source of the first few Chinese counterfeiting photos I ran across. This discussion devolved into an entirely off-topic, and at times rude in nature, Q & A regarding the personalities involved in this matter, rather than principles of counterfeiting and related subjects.
After receiving a few complaints about the nature of this thread, I have decided it was best to clean it up. I hope people will be understanding.
Susan Headley
About.com Guide to Coins
They have cost us much more than we can ever count in monitary damage.The fakes and the people who buy them to profit from them are costing us jobs.Also the losses that come from lack of work such as divorce and soforth.There should be a complete ban on any product out of china and anywhere else.We can and have stood on our own manufacturing for years and we can again so long as we don’t get greedy.
Living in Toronto-we have many odd places(chinese shops)that sell just about everything,from beutiful carvings,furniture,and u name it.A glass cabinet at front of store caught my eye,and in the corner were a bunch chinese coins,neatly wrapped,about 6 pces each pkg.I was fascinated, they were large coins very nice copies, of course the price was $8 per pack, so obviously fakes,copies, and also confirmed & clarified by the store. I looked them up in my book, & I learnt quite a lot,1)they were excellent fakes,the history & areas,fascinates me.If they had been real, I would be rich, But I just enjoy them, and have fun.Having said that I can see how some people could be mislead-if the goods seem too good be true, then “buyer beware”. I enjoy your news and thanx for letting us join in. Best wishes Anita ita
How long will it be, before the coins they are now making, will be genuine US coins, forced overseas by our GREEDY union negociators, at the barganing table? Think about it. How many of our jobs, are now being filled, overseas? Is yours next?
If our government knows about this ongoing problem,why don’t we stop them in there tracks. We have agents in China,form an A team like we had in NAM and destroy the factory and the manufacturers. As the Phoenix Project in SouthEast Asia we eliminated the problem with extreme prejudice. It,s that simple!
This is what ruins markets and drives completely honest people out of business.
As for trading in silver bullion, this mess is the worst nightmare ever. Now all silver bullion trade will either have to be fully tested or only purchased from a mint.
There is no way to control these folks in China, All coins and Silver bullion are suspect at this point. Which means they all must be verified as what they are by complete testing, prior to being purchased. I had a great deal working on some silver bullion that I had to back out of because of this ordeal.
At this point silver investors need to smelt all the silver they hold in order to verify its .999 silver. Then re-stamp it into rounds that these clowns don’t hold the molds for or a size they cannot make (inches vs metric)
Its a sad day when this type of complete deception is allowed by a government, its worse when they allow it to internally deflate our hard currency market
Unscrupulous people have always been motivated by a profit motive. In the China during olden days, there used to be public beheadings of criminals. If the Chinese government used these tried and proven punitive methods on counterfeiters, this ought to motivate those who still have their heads left to think twice about crime does not pay.
I had heard about this from my coin dealer a few weeks ago.
Well…….if the PCGS and NGC constructed
an online database of serial numbers, some
people might check before they bought online or from anywhere.
So a sale would be complicated but could be more secure.
Interesting that a crimminal problem becomes
a political problem, or I could say the two
seem to be going hand in hand these days.
I would like to see all counterfeiting factories gone!!! Thanks to Susan for alerting
me as to how serious this problem has become.
What I see here is a means to manufacture coins. It seems that someone has taken the next step and stated that this operation is being used to flood the market with counterfeit high end MS62+ bullion type coins.
Do we know this to be a fact? If so, I think I will only purchase collector type non bullion based coins until a means of certification is initiated that protects the individual investor. This type of operation may even increase the value of “authentic” coins for sale by the small or individual collector who is held accountable for his wares, however this is not the way I intended my stock to increase in value.
G.S. Meyer
I see this is a disaster on more than one front:
– coin collecting, both buyers and dealers, will be hurt- if not destroyed- by a huge influx of fakes. There are some of these for sale on ebay that are even circulated looking. If you really didn’t know what you were doing you could easily get burned.
– people who buy bullion-grade coins as a hedge against inflation could get really shafted. You see worn out silver coins for sale EVERYWHERE these days. There is nothing to keep a dishonest seller from slipping in fakes. How do you know a bank bag of junk silver quarters are all authentic? Many people are unfamiliar with the coins anyway, and if they were simply a newbie loking to buy a little junk silver then they would really get burned.
The Red Chinese aren’t going to do anything to stop the export of these fake coins. I guess customs would be the agency to stop their entry into this country? It should have been stopped long before now- a lot is at stake.
P.S.
Susan, thank you for posting the pictures! this is all very informative.
-Jeff
When I first got in to coin collecting last year, I found and won a few sets of coins on ebay, that were from China. It was like it was too good to be true. They had nice photos of shiny gold coin sets,clearly stamped .999 au/ 1oz, and down to 1/25 oz., with certificates of authenticity in chinese, and english clearly saying pure gold bullion. After finally getting the coins a month later, which surprized me, they only weigh half as much as the coin says. Impossible to real pure gold. These are for sale on ebay all the time for $69. free shipping. They also boldly sell other fakes that are sold ads mini gold coins/medals. I have complained but no response from ebay. Maybe somebody out there can stop this-thanks
My experiencec with unmarked “copy” coins was on E-Bay. Under the guise of half a dozen names(one of which is aa E-bay prized seller), one can buy unmarked singles from vg to vf condition at approx. $3.60 each. Naturally underweight, they offer a 90% silver alernative from $25-$40 range. Most frustrating is Ebays lack of ability to police thier own Website in lieu of thier fees.These coinscould so easily be passed off at a show unslabbed in fine condition without inspection. Personally, I feel Ebay is a huge outlet and needs to stop hiding behind thier Hobby preservation Act and take some responsibility in what thier vendors are shipping. We can’t stop China from minting but they can investigate complaints of Bogous coins rather than sending a Community form letter to you.
Thank You, Susan, very thought provoking story.
My feelings are quite strong on this making of “Replica” coins. Come On! These are “Counterfeit Coins”.
I taken to task sellers of this crap on eBay. What’s wrong with the complete banning of such trash? Shut off the market, where’s the profit then?
Do you ever ask yourself, knowing that all these “Replicas” are stamped either “Copy” or “Replica” After the coin is “Minted”, asked:
What happens in their (coins) travel between the “Minting” table and the “Man with a Hammer and a Copy stamp” table?
Do you think these Replicas are overseen religiously through their entire manufacturing cycle?
I don’t.
Hence the Banning from our Shores.