Last week, we took a look at a situation where an elderly lady brings a jar of old coins to a local coin show, hoping to discover their value and probably sell them. Some of her coins were easily recognizable as being worth more than a $1,000 each, but the coin dealer only offered her $700 for the whole jar. (You can read the entire original scenario here regarding the elderly lady and her jar of coins.) As a customer at the show, I intervened and told the lady she should get other appraisals, which resulted in my being thrown out of the coin show for interfering in a transaction.
The comments from our community really surprised me because when I've told this story at coin shows, people have almost always sided with the dealer, claiming that I was in the wrong to interfere, no matter how badly the lady was being ripped off. The logic given by these folks is that when a dealer pays good money to set up a table at a coin show, one of the benefits to him is the fact that people from all over bring in coins to sell. Dealers are often able to acquire new stock very cheaply at these shows, and some dealers only do local shows for the main reason that they hope to buy, not sell, inventory.
The pro-dealer side of the "lady with a jar of coins" argument is that one of things a dealer pays for with his coin show table fee is the chance to buy coins from the people who attend the show. Most dealers I've talked to about this sort of thing feel that as long as the seller names her own price, the dealer is in the clear morally. How can he be accused of ripping someone off when the seller got the price she asked for? "But what if the person just refuses to state a price?" I've asked. "Do you pass on the buying opportunity then?" A couple of dealers said they would pass, but most admit that they'd make an offer anyway to get things started. In all cases they want to buy the coins as cheaply as possible, to make as much profit as possible, like all businessmen. It's not their fault if the seller hasn't done her homework, they contend.
The other side of this debate, the pro-consumer side, is alarmingly different. Most non-collectors who bring coins to a coin show (or coin store, for that matter) to sell them are counting on the dealer's expertise and integrity to ensure that they get a fair price. There's a clear sense of trust; after all, they are consulting an expert in coins about their coins, right? There is a widespread perception on the part of the average non-collector that if they take their newly inherited coin collection to a dealer, that he will be fair with them. Most people in this position don't think it through too clearly; they just assume they'll be treated fairly. Unfortunately, most of them aren't.
So, here we are with our little old lady and her jar of coins, which includes VF and EF Bust Dollars and Half Dollars, numerous decent-grade Half Cents and Large Cents, and a smattering of smaller silver coins from the early to mid 1800's. Definitely not your average "bullion buy" here. The lady asks for an appraisal and gets none. The dealer verbally denigrates her coins and bullies a figure out of her that is less than even ONE coin in the jar is worth. The dealer doesn't even accept this gift of a figure and counter-offers 30% less. A bystander (me) finally intervenes, urging the lady to get other offers, and is ejected from the coin show for her trouble. What do you think about this?
Most people agreed that I should have stepped in:
Unfortunately, the dealers at most of the shows I've been to wouldn't stand for it. :(
The comments from our community really surprised me because when I've told this story at coin shows, people have almost always sided with the dealer, claiming that I was in the wrong to interfere, no matter how badly the lady was being ripped off. The logic given by these folks is that when a dealer pays good money to set up a table at a coin show, one of the benefits to him is the fact that people from all over bring in coins to sell. Dealers are often able to acquire new stock very cheaply at these shows, and some dealers only do local shows for the main reason that they hope to buy, not sell, inventory.
The pro-dealer side of the "lady with a jar of coins" argument is that one of things a dealer pays for with his coin show table fee is the chance to buy coins from the people who attend the show. Most dealers I've talked to about this sort of thing feel that as long as the seller names her own price, the dealer is in the clear morally. How can he be accused of ripping someone off when the seller got the price she asked for? "But what if the person just refuses to state a price?" I've asked. "Do you pass on the buying opportunity then?" A couple of dealers said they would pass, but most admit that they'd make an offer anyway to get things started. In all cases they want to buy the coins as cheaply as possible, to make as much profit as possible, like all businessmen. It's not their fault if the seller hasn't done her homework, they contend.
The other side of this debate, the pro-consumer side, is alarmingly different. Most non-collectors who bring coins to a coin show (or coin store, for that matter) to sell them are counting on the dealer's expertise and integrity to ensure that they get a fair price. There's a clear sense of trust; after all, they are consulting an expert in coins about their coins, right? There is a widespread perception on the part of the average non-collector that if they take their newly inherited coin collection to a dealer, that he will be fair with them. Most people in this position don't think it through too clearly; they just assume they'll be treated fairly. Unfortunately, most of them aren't.
So, here we are with our little old lady and her jar of coins, which includes VF and EF Bust Dollars and Half Dollars, numerous decent-grade Half Cents and Large Cents, and a smattering of smaller silver coins from the early to mid 1800's. Definitely not your average "bullion buy" here. The lady asks for an appraisal and gets none. The dealer verbally denigrates her coins and bullies a figure out of her that is less than even ONE coin in the jar is worth. The dealer doesn't even accept this gift of a figure and counter-offers 30% less. A bystander (me) finally intervenes, urging the lady to get other offers, and is ejected from the coin show for her trouble. What do you think about this?
Most people agreed that I should have stepped in:
I think there’s no question that you should have spoken up. This person was basically stealing from the woman, and you had a moral and ethical obligation to help her, in my opinion. --Sandra
You were right. I wonder if I could be an exact copy of that women. I sold a large bag of coins last month and have my doubts. It included buffalo nickels and mercury dimes and half dollars. I have more including v nickels and don’t know if I should go back to the same person. --Norma ArnoldSome folks would have done a bit more than just speak up...
Basically, you should have knocked the “dealer” out. If you are going to get thrown out of somewhere, might as well take a bad guy with you! --Dan
YOU DID THE RIGHT THING!! As evidenced by the majority of the responders...A few people felt that although I was right to speak up, people who are selling coins bear some of the responsibility for educating themselves, too:
There is a GREAT difference between making a “good deal” and blatantly, deliberately taking advantage of someone.
I only wish you had been carrying mace!! --WAL
You did the right thing without a doubt. People need to learn or be educated about how to have their coins appraised before they sell. --Heath
The dealer did not appraise the coins or make the initial offer, he let the elderly woman make the first move, and merely counter offered. There are plenty of books in the library/places online where the lady could have checked the values of the coins for herself before hazarding a guess. Of course, the dealer was sly about the whole operation, but who isn’t out to make a buck?Austin makes an interesting point here, about collectibles having a perceived value. If I hadn't interfered, no doubt the lady would have thought the $700 was a windfall, and the coin dealer who bought them would have made a great score (and felt entitled to every penny of his gain.) The core principle at issue here is trust. When the general public come to a coin dealer to sell coins they know nothing about, they are trusting the dealer to be honest. The problem is that the dealer mentality is in opposition. At least most dealers...fortunately there are exceptions:
You were definitely in the right to alert the elderly woman though. It just wasn’t to the dealer’s best interest, and it’s unfortunate that you were thrown out just for having a conversation with the lady.
The problem with identifying this dealer as a thief is that collectibles are all about perceived value. This lady said herself that they were “nothing” to her, so really 700-1000 bucks would be a great deal as she saw it (no doubt tens of thousands would be even better.)
Hopefully the woman saw how easily the dealer went up to 1000 and took your advice to get a real appraisal. --Austin
I’m a female dealer - and 99% of my customers are in *exactly* the same position as the woman you tried to save from the thief… and that’s exactly what he is - a thief. Personally, I treat each of my customers (even the wheat penny & worn mercury dime people) the same way I’d want a dealer to treat my elderly grandmother. After all, I not only have to do business in my town for many years to come - I have to look in the mirror in the morning. --KatThere were a small number of respondents who felt that I was wrong to interfere.
Well, I don’t agree that you should have been thrown out. But I also don’t think you should have interfered either.The pick box situation ACR was referring to is a previous Coins Dealer Ethics column where a customer (me) found a $150 coin in a ten-cent pick box (see Dealer Pick Boxes) and the coin dealer refused to sell it to her. His point is that if customers can get the best of dealers when the dealers haven't done their homework, then why shouldn't it work the other way around? His logic rejects the concept that dealers should be held to a higher standard because they earn their living (or a portion of it) buying and selling coins. Here's another comment that touches on the same points:
Think about it, aren’t we all looking for a good deal so we can make a profit and/or add to our collection? I seem to remember another ethical situation where someone was picking through a box and found some real deals at .10 each or 12 for $1. But it wasn’t ethical to inform THAT coin seller he had coins more valuable than he had them priced.
So why is this any different? She named her price, and like any good business man he haggled. Are you saying you wouldn’t haggle, even though it was a good deal? Of course you would. --ACR
A few weeks ago (see: “Dealer Pick Boxes”) I commented about how a “deal is a deal”; the dealer named his price and you wanted to pay it. Then you found a very valuable Flying Eagle cent. Then the dealer wanted to change “how the game is played.“One thing that became clear in your responses was that the notion of the "little old lady" is an emotionally charged one. One person even decided she was "sweet" without knowing anything else about her:
Is this scenario any different? The old lady named a price and the dealer wanted to pay it.
Is it any different than “cherry picking” a dealer’s inventory for valuable die varieties? The dealer listed a price and he wanted to pay it.
Should we use a different “yardstick” for different people? One “yardstick” for a part-time dealer; a different one for a full-time professional dealer; another for a knowledgeable collector; a different one for a new collector and special one for little old ladies? If so, then we need to define what the rules are. Additionally, I really don’t know how you would do that, much less enforce the rules.
Personally, I would have gotten involved too. There is just something in my heart that does not allow me to sit and watch someone get taken advantage of for that amount of money. If it was my mother trying to get some money to pay for her medicines, I would hope and pray that somebody would watch out for her. --Jim
YOU DID GOOD. YOU PROBABLY STOPPED THAT DEALER FROM HITTING A JACKPOT WITH THAT SWEET OLD LADY... --MarianoAnother person thought she was "nice," (and offered some excellent advice for dealing with the situation the next time I encounter it):
I would have leaned over and said to the nice little old lady, ”Grandma, Could we talk about this for a minute before WE sell them. I know they are worth much more than that.” --Jeffrey GelmanFinally, some of the best advice I have ever seen for these sorts of situations was offered by an insightful respondent who said:
If she was carrying a jar, perhaps the security chaps that were so keen to oust you should have warned her to be extra careful. --Anita from CanadaWhat a great idea! Any of us who are in a position to do so should distribute a flyer to incoming show participants who have coins to sell, giving them 3 or 4 real simple things to consider, such as "Get several offers," "Spend $15 on a Red Book," etc. Although most people who bring coins to a coin show to sell don't carry them openly in jars like this lady did, including a flyer like this in the show brochure or simply handing it out at the door would save countless people from being taken advantage of.
Unfortunately, the dealers at most of the shows I've been to wouldn't stand for it. :(
Comments
i have dealt with the same dealer for quite awhile and bought most of my coins from him when i went to sell my coins he acted if i were a stranger and offered me very little there was complete set of lincolns most were bu he offered me a fraction of what they were worth buyer and seller beware shame on them and me jesse
when a so called business man rips some body off or a thief steals the coins , the same thing happens, somebodies kid dont get fed,
I’ve been pondering this ethical question since you first raised it. I can see both sides of the story (as I’m sure you can). The “little old lady” was obviously drawn to the only banner which stated “Coins bought here”; if there were more dealers who made their intentions known (i.e. that they would buy coins), then maybe she would have shopped around. On your part, if possible, I would have gotten into a bidding war with the buyer, assuming the lady would take a check, and then I would have covered the check if my bank account was depleted, I’d have used my credit card to replenish it before it cleared. If I could have gotten away with it, that is.
You were 100% correct. NEVER waiver on your morals, regardless of how many CROOKS you may upset.
6 months ago I was at a local bank here in Cheyenne. An elderly lady came in with a coin, which turned out to be a $50 gold coin. She wanted to exchange the coin for $50 cash. I was directly behind here listening to the entire conversation. The very young teller, who thought the coin was foreign, told the lady the bank didn’t exchange foreign coins. The bank manager walked by right about then and said “what does she have?”. The teller showed him and he promptly said, as he was digging in his pocket “I will give you $50 for it”. I then had to jump in. I said, about as loud as I could so EVERYBODY heard “Do not sell that to him!”. I told her (this was when gold was reaching the $1000 mark) that her coin was worth at least $1k and I sent her to Dwights coin shop here in town. A couple of weeks later, I stopped by Dwights and asked about the elderly lady and told him what happened at the bank. After shaking his head in disbelief, Dwight let me know that he treated the lady extremely fair and gave her a hair over spot for the coin.
I am happy to say, my business and I are no longer members of that bank!
Kudos my dear! I agree with your actions. It burns my blood to witness such blatant theviery. The man saw the poor woman knew nothing about the cashe she had and was smelling fresh blood.
To me his overly whiny demands for security etc to have you removed was obviously to get you as far away from his potential customers.
People like that make me sick and I am proud of you for stepping up!
I agree with all the above comments.
Susan, you hit the nail right on the head in your fourth paragraph!
When a non-collector comes into a dealer he or she is INDEED “counting on the dealer’s expertise and integrity”.
It is the same issue when you go in to get your car fixed at your local mechanic’s, or you visit your dentist for an exam.
It all boils down to HONESTY . . . something which seems to be sadly lacking according to so many of these articles I read.
That dealer KNEW the value of the coins that the little old lady was selling, and he could have easily given her a FAIR price and still made a hefty profit!
Susan, you were 100% right for what you did, and we’re all proud of you!
All best, JerseyJoe
I just read the details of the little old lady with the Jar and I agree with Susan she did the right thing, if the organisers of the show were any good they would have thrown this dealer out and you commented about other dealers who sided with the (nasty )dealer well I hope you made a note of their names and that you might in the future share the info with other people as a warning.
Lots of Luck Susan, keep up the good work
PJL
You absolutely did the right thing. I give you credit for having the “guts” to stand up to him. Next time put your cell phone on video and record what happen or at least snapped his pic. Twitter can do wonders too. I know cameras and such are prohibited and pictures are also; but, what the heck….they were going to kick ya’ out anyway!
Kudos! You go girl!
I too am an old lady in my 80’s. I also have quite a collection of old coins. You did the right thing, I hope the old woman listened to you. I would have asked 10,000, and let him come down to a decent price. Call his bluff since he was not really appraising the coins.
I have some coins and desperately need the money that they might bring to take care of my 93 year old mother. I am almost 70. while I need the money, I am really concerned that I, a novice when it comes to coin value, could loose what i have. You most assuredly did the right thing. I pray for people like you to step up and help others. I am looking for a reliable appraisar on the Austin area. Help!
Susan I read your story with great interest. You were correct in speaking to the lady. The dealers outburst hopefully lead the lady to walk away. The issue here is you were slandered and I would have loved to read that you took the dealer to court with a law suit. Is it too late?
If the conversation between you and the lady went as you wrote then the only difference I would have made was to ask the lady to step over to where I was and away from the dealer. She would no longer have been doing business with him.
I was a dealer many years ago. Most dealers are hungry to make profit at any cost. Many,albeit much fewer, are honest and would give an offer that would be fair to the seller and still have a profit margin.
Thank you for your story. I hope you take the dealer and the organizer to court and let a judge decide if you were right, wrong or slandered or even assaulted.
You were great to interfere, I’ve had coin dealers try to rip me off continuously for high value coins I have. We really need a middle ground for placing value on coins. I can’t believe the lack of ethics that has appeared in our country in the last few years. It’s sad.
I think you did the right thing by interfering, I would have gone about it differently though. I would have told the elderly lady that I would be willing to pay her considerably more fro her coins. That way th edealer couldn’t have complained so much about you getting involved, after all its basically an open air market and if you overhear a transaction taking place who says you can’t make an offer yourself?
You definitely did the absolute right thing. That coin “dealer” should be a lot more honest, I can understand going to coin show and buying cheap coins but that was a complete scam. This makes me sad to think a person that knows a lot about coin collecting. Don’t let anybody else tell you different, you did the right thing. If I was in the same scenario, I would do exactly the same thing.
I also agree that you were right in speaking up to the dealer taking advantage of the little old lady. Maybe he will be on the other side of the “table” one day and see what it feels like; or lying on an operating table trusting the surgeon to do his job to the best of his ability. That dealer needs someone to pray for him. I think I will.
You absolutly did the right thing. The dealer was nothing more than a thief. A lot of new coin sellers do not know the value of their coins and expect the dealers to be honest. Things like this give all dealers a bad name. May God bless you for stepping in!
Id say parodn me, You have a phone call out side. When followed me out there. Id snatch the jar then her cane so she couldnt chase me. Just kidding Id snatch the cane fist. Just in case mother time had a killer grip on those coins.(peeling potatoes really works out the hand!!!) So low and behold Id get away.
But for real. I think these people are snakes. Waiting to feed on the week. And I really hope something like this happens in front of me. Cause like I said, Ill snatch that cane and beat the piss out that bad dog. Then wipe their remains from the battered cane and hand it back to lill oll granny.
I’m a retired cop and have a modest coin collection. This fool was making a bad name for everyone in the business! I’m extremely cautious about buying coins from strangers with tables just for this reason. You could have turned the tables on them for threatening to sue for assault the second the guard touched you!
I think the dealer was within the law, but morality is in the eye of the beholder. From the dealer’s viewpoint it’s only a question of whether the deal is worth more than his reputation. I sure wish you had gotten his name.
As for your actions, you had no right to interfere if you were standing in the area the dealer had rented. If you were saying your stuff from the adjacent area, you were within your rights, and the management had no right to eject you–especially without hearing your side.
I’m glad you mentioned the name Bick International. I’ll be sure to avoid them in the future.
I have had very little experience with coin dealers. Maybe 8 total. Not a single one has ever left me feeling comfortable. They have all been older men who never seemed interested in what I had to sell or what I was looking to buy.
I don’t trust any coin dealers because I haven’t found one that seems trustworthy yet.
For a casual hobby it’s tricky.
You did the right thing by telling the old lady to check with other dealers. I believe the best way for people to sell old coins is in a coin auction like Stack’s. Yes, buy a red book, and Coin World magazine. I am sure that she sold the coins to the dealer, who make a hugh profit.
I applaud you for stopping the rip-off of the elderly lady. I would have asked her if she would like me to do a honest evaluation of her coins at no charge to her.
I really love helping people with their coin questions. Educatinig the public is a big part of the honest coin collectors and a duty!