Coin Dealer Ethics - Pick Boxes
Wednesday October 3, 2007
I have always been a big fan of pick boxes (what most dealers call "junk boxes.") These are the sorts of boxes where coin dealers throw coins that are either too common, too worn or damaged, or too obscure for them to spend the time pricing singly. After all, it costs dealers time and money to put a coin in a 2x2 holder or coin flip, look up and note the catalog number and price, grade the coin, etc. Their solution is to toss such coins into boxes, and then let customers spend their own time sorting through the junk for something they want to buy. Typically, these junk boxes have a flat-rate price, such as 10 cents a coin. These boxes frequently consist of Wheat Cents, partial-date Buffalo Nickels, "About Good" (AG grade) coins of all types, and sometimes Morgan and Peace Dollars or world coins. Sometimes the coins are in 2x2's, although pick boxes of such coins are usually priced higher and looked at more closely by the dealer.
I'm not sure whether it's luck or sheer persistence, but I've done very well sorting through these pick boxes. I pluck out a pile of coins that I feel are worth more than the asking price and go home feeling like I made a good buy. I found a 1922-plain Lincoln Cent in one of these boxes once. The coin was very worn, but it was clearly a '22-plain. Where I've done especially well with pick boxes is in antique stores and pawn shops. These dealers aren't coin experts, so they miss a lot, especially the varieties.
This week's Coin Dealer Ethics question has to do with a pick box situation I was recently involved in. Here's what happened:
I had arrived shortly after the coin show doors opened, and as I headed down the main aisle in the opposite direction most people were going (to have first shot at the stuff on the left side of the room while everyone else moved like cattle to the right,) I came upon a dealer we'll call "Joe." He was in the act of pouring a canvas bag full of Wheat Cents into a large, sturdy box. When I stopped to watch, he said, "I just opened this bag of 5,000 Wheat Cents. They're completely unsearched. Your pick, ten cents a coin or twelve for a dollar."
Well, this was exactly what I was looking for, so I sat myself down, got out my jeweler's headset-magnifier, adjusted the light, and began sorting the pennies. I sat there for perhaps two hours, quickly sorting through them, mostly by sight. I can tell the earlier cents because the rim is wider and they're struck in a different relief than the later Wheat Cents are. I had set aside about 40 to 50 coins to examine more closely under my loupe, such as any 1917's I found, any 1944's with mint marks, semi-key dates (no key dates had been found just yet,) 1936's and certain other dates I keep an eye out for. The mix in this bag wasn't bad; many of the coins from the 1940's and 1950's were in EF and AU grades, and some were still BU. There was even the odd Indian Head Cent, Lincoln Memorial, and even a couple of Canadian pennies. I had toyed with offering for the whole lot but I have too many pennies around my house already, plus I always regret paying 3.4 cents each for mostly bullion-value coins when I could have just sat there for a couple more hours and paid 8 cents each for the best 40 or 50 coins in the lot. Anyway, dealers who can sell them for 8 to 10 cents each usually won't let them go for less than 5 or 6 cents a coin, so all things considered, I kept plugging away, quickly sorting through the box (and likely missing the occasional minor repunched mint mark or doubled die in my haste.)
At some point, the dealer sat down across from me and began fingering through my "picks." He seemed friendly enough, asking if I had found anything interesting. I told him that I wasn't certain I was going to buy the picks yet, this was just a stage in my overall sorting process. He said, "take your time, I'm not going anywhere." He continued to look through my picks, at one point pulling out a jeweler's ten-power loupe, and commenting about the four Indian Head Cents I had found. He casually looked through my picks, and waited on a customer here and there, and it was sometime around then that I found the EF 1857 Flying Eagle Cent.
My heart started beating a mile a minute! The adrenaline began to flow, and I got that crazy, funny, happy rush that you get when you make a score after meticulously sorting through loads and loads of junk. But, I've been down this sort of road before, and so I kept my head (or so I thought.) The dealer, at this moment, was at the other end of his table putting away some coins he had shown, and so I looked toward him and asked, "Everything in this box is 12 for a Dollar, right? Even if I keep finding Indian Head pennies?"
The dealer replied, "Yep, 10 cents each, 12 for a buck. But I doubt you'll find many more Indians. A couple always get into those bags; it goes with the territory I guess. Found any Canadians yet?"
I laughed, perhaps not as easily as I could have, and said, "Yep, but not very many. I just want to make sure we're agreed on the price, just in case I find a 1909-S VDB or something."
He laughed and said, "That's why those pick boxes do so well. Everyone thinks they're gonna find an S-VDB."
Well, as my adrenaline rush started ebbing, I realized that I was really getting tired of sitting there, and I'd already been through most of the box, so I stood up and quickly ran my hands through the rest of the coins looking for any more Indians (or Flying Eagles!) I tossed the Flying Eagle onto the little pile of other picks and began looking at the picks more closely with my own ten-power loupe, throwing about half of them back into the junk box. I ended up with 27 coins: 4 Indian Head Cents, 22 assorted Wheat Cents, and 1 Flying Eagle Cent. I announced to the dealer that I had 27 coins, so I owed him $2.30. He reached under his table and came up with a little ziplock baggie for me to put my picks in, and took the coins into his hand and began counting them into the baggie. When he came across the Flying Eagle, he stopped and said, "Wait a minute. This coin wasn't in the Wheat Cent box."
I told him it was, right along with the Indian Pennies and a few Canadians, and he said, "I'm sorry, Miss, but a Flying Eagle Cent is worth more than the price you're paying to sort through my Wheat pennies. And this one looks like it's probably worth $150 or more. Somehow I must have overlooked this coin. It obviously shouldn't have been in that box."
By now, my adrenaline was starting to flow again, but this time for a different reason than joy. I reminded this dealer that when I walked up to his table, he had claimed that the penny bag had just been opened and had never been searched by him. Therefore, if he had never searched it, how could he be telling me he missed the coin?
He began to get a little nasty at this point, telling me that I must not be very smart if I believe everything every coin dealer ever tells me. Of course the coins in that bag had been searched by him, what was he going to do, give away a 1909-S VDB?! (The guy really said this to me, after all his talk earlier about somebody maybe getting lucky and finding this coin in his lot someday.) By now, with our voices raised a little, people were turning to look, especially the dealers in neighboring booths.
I reminded him that I had clearly asked the price of the coins, even going so far as to ask if non-Wheat pennies that I found in the box were the same price (I was referring to the Indian pennies, which he knew I had found.) I felt that he should honor his price. I believe that he really had just opened an unsorted bag of wheaties, but was now regretting not having checked them first. I demanded that he call the bourse chairman to mediate the dispute, since he was flatly refusing to sell me the coin. I earnestly felt this was a matter where the dealer was too greedy to let a customer get lucky out of his pick box. And that infuriated me.
I should have known better than to call the bourse chairman, though. Of course the chairman found in the dealer's favor and backed his decision to not sell me the coin. Then the dealer spitefully added, "I was even being generous to this lady, letting her have 4 Indian pennies at 8 cents each. See how greedy some people are?" Although I didn't realize this until I cooled down later, I wasn't likely to get a fair hearing from the bourse chairman, especially at a little local show, because these dealers are his customers, so the chairman has to keep these guys happy or they won't come back and pay their $75 a show booth fees. However, I feel that they both were wrong. The dealer should have sold me the coin at the pick bin price, since I legitimately found it in the pick bin. The chairman should have made the dealer honor his prices and policies, especially since nobody questioned whether or not I had actually found the coin there, or whether it had actually been there properly.
What do you think? Should the dealer have sold me the Flying Eagle for a dime? Or was I wrong to press my case? If so, why? What do you think about the bourse chairman's decision? Share your thoughts via the "comments" link below, and next week we'll review your responses.
I'm not sure whether it's luck or sheer persistence, but I've done very well sorting through these pick boxes. I pluck out a pile of coins that I feel are worth more than the asking price and go home feeling like I made a good buy. I found a 1922-plain Lincoln Cent in one of these boxes once. The coin was very worn, but it was clearly a '22-plain. Where I've done especially well with pick boxes is in antique stores and pawn shops. These dealers aren't coin experts, so they miss a lot, especially the varieties.
This week's Coin Dealer Ethics question has to do with a pick box situation I was recently involved in. Here's what happened:
I had arrived shortly after the coin show doors opened, and as I headed down the main aisle in the opposite direction most people were going (to have first shot at the stuff on the left side of the room while everyone else moved like cattle to the right,) I came upon a dealer we'll call "Joe." He was in the act of pouring a canvas bag full of Wheat Cents into a large, sturdy box. When I stopped to watch, he said, "I just opened this bag of 5,000 Wheat Cents. They're completely unsearched. Your pick, ten cents a coin or twelve for a dollar."
Well, this was exactly what I was looking for, so I sat myself down, got out my jeweler's headset-magnifier, adjusted the light, and began sorting the pennies. I sat there for perhaps two hours, quickly sorting through them, mostly by sight. I can tell the earlier cents because the rim is wider and they're struck in a different relief than the later Wheat Cents are. I had set aside about 40 to 50 coins to examine more closely under my loupe, such as any 1917's I found, any 1944's with mint marks, semi-key dates (no key dates had been found just yet,) 1936's and certain other dates I keep an eye out for. The mix in this bag wasn't bad; many of the coins from the 1940's and 1950's were in EF and AU grades, and some were still BU. There was even the odd Indian Head Cent, Lincoln Memorial, and even a couple of Canadian pennies. I had toyed with offering for the whole lot but I have too many pennies around my house already, plus I always regret paying 3.4 cents each for mostly bullion-value coins when I could have just sat there for a couple more hours and paid 8 cents each for the best 40 or 50 coins in the lot. Anyway, dealers who can sell them for 8 to 10 cents each usually won't let them go for less than 5 or 6 cents a coin, so all things considered, I kept plugging away, quickly sorting through the box (and likely missing the occasional minor repunched mint mark or doubled die in my haste.)
At some point, the dealer sat down across from me and began fingering through my "picks." He seemed friendly enough, asking if I had found anything interesting. I told him that I wasn't certain I was going to buy the picks yet, this was just a stage in my overall sorting process. He said, "take your time, I'm not going anywhere." He continued to look through my picks, at one point pulling out a jeweler's ten-power loupe, and commenting about the four Indian Head Cents I had found. He casually looked through my picks, and waited on a customer here and there, and it was sometime around then that I found the EF 1857 Flying Eagle Cent.
My heart started beating a mile a minute! The adrenaline began to flow, and I got that crazy, funny, happy rush that you get when you make a score after meticulously sorting through loads and loads of junk. But, I've been down this sort of road before, and so I kept my head (or so I thought.) The dealer, at this moment, was at the other end of his table putting away some coins he had shown, and so I looked toward him and asked, "Everything in this box is 12 for a Dollar, right? Even if I keep finding Indian Head pennies?"
The dealer replied, "Yep, 10 cents each, 12 for a buck. But I doubt you'll find many more Indians. A couple always get into those bags; it goes with the territory I guess. Found any Canadians yet?"
I laughed, perhaps not as easily as I could have, and said, "Yep, but not very many. I just want to make sure we're agreed on the price, just in case I find a 1909-S VDB or something."
He laughed and said, "That's why those pick boxes do so well. Everyone thinks they're gonna find an S-VDB."
Well, as my adrenaline rush started ebbing, I realized that I was really getting tired of sitting there, and I'd already been through most of the box, so I stood up and quickly ran my hands through the rest of the coins looking for any more Indians (or Flying Eagles!) I tossed the Flying Eagle onto the little pile of other picks and began looking at the picks more closely with my own ten-power loupe, throwing about half of them back into the junk box. I ended up with 27 coins: 4 Indian Head Cents, 22 assorted Wheat Cents, and 1 Flying Eagle Cent. I announced to the dealer that I had 27 coins, so I owed him $2.30. He reached under his table and came up with a little ziplock baggie for me to put my picks in, and took the coins into his hand and began counting them into the baggie. When he came across the Flying Eagle, he stopped and said, "Wait a minute. This coin wasn't in the Wheat Cent box."
I told him it was, right along with the Indian Pennies and a few Canadians, and he said, "I'm sorry, Miss, but a Flying Eagle Cent is worth more than the price you're paying to sort through my Wheat pennies. And this one looks like it's probably worth $150 or more. Somehow I must have overlooked this coin. It obviously shouldn't have been in that box."
By now, my adrenaline was starting to flow again, but this time for a different reason than joy. I reminded this dealer that when I walked up to his table, he had claimed that the penny bag had just been opened and had never been searched by him. Therefore, if he had never searched it, how could he be telling me he missed the coin?
He began to get a little nasty at this point, telling me that I must not be very smart if I believe everything every coin dealer ever tells me. Of course the coins in that bag had been searched by him, what was he going to do, give away a 1909-S VDB?! (The guy really said this to me, after all his talk earlier about somebody maybe getting lucky and finding this coin in his lot someday.) By now, with our voices raised a little, people were turning to look, especially the dealers in neighboring booths.
I reminded him that I had clearly asked the price of the coins, even going so far as to ask if non-Wheat pennies that I found in the box were the same price (I was referring to the Indian pennies, which he knew I had found.) I felt that he should honor his price. I believe that he really had just opened an unsorted bag of wheaties, but was now regretting not having checked them first. I demanded that he call the bourse chairman to mediate the dispute, since he was flatly refusing to sell me the coin. I earnestly felt this was a matter where the dealer was too greedy to let a customer get lucky out of his pick box. And that infuriated me.
I should have known better than to call the bourse chairman, though. Of course the chairman found in the dealer's favor and backed his decision to not sell me the coin. Then the dealer spitefully added, "I was even being generous to this lady, letting her have 4 Indian pennies at 8 cents each. See how greedy some people are?" Although I didn't realize this until I cooled down later, I wasn't likely to get a fair hearing from the bourse chairman, especially at a little local show, because these dealers are his customers, so the chairman has to keep these guys happy or they won't come back and pay their $75 a show booth fees. However, I feel that they both were wrong. The dealer should have sold me the coin at the pick bin price, since I legitimately found it in the pick bin. The chairman should have made the dealer honor his prices and policies, especially since nobody questioned whether or not I had actually found the coin there, or whether it had actually been there properly.
What do you think? Should the dealer have sold me the Flying Eagle for a dime? Or was I wrong to press my case? If so, why? What do you think about the bourse chairman's decision? Share your thoughts via the "comments" link below, and next week we'll review your responses.
Comments
I think the dealer should have sold you the coin , After all he said it more than once that the coins were 12 for a dollar
a deal is a deal
Mam, In my life I have come to realize that in every business, walk of life, culture, country, etc. the majority of people in this world or dishonest when it comes to money. But what most people don’t realize is that there are universal principles at work which effect us all. It is simple cause and effect in a hidden plane of energy. Yes I agree with you totally that the dealer and the bourse should have honored the dealers claim. Sometimes I think I am the only honest person in the world when it comes to money. I have given back money to cashiers when they have given me too much change in return. There have been many other instances where I could have taken advantage of people but, didn’t. Just remember “what goes around, comes around”. I am a living testament to this principle. I don’t have a college degree and make well over 6 figures a year. I attribute this to following the unbreakable principle I mentioned earlier. In fact, whenever you come across similar situations, take heart that the universe can and will balance out any wrong doing in favor of those who are taken advantage, exploited, etc. I have seen it work many times in my life. I can only say that this dealer will with no doubt in my mind have negative consequenses coming his way because of this. When we put out positive energy, positive energy is returned. When we put out negative energy, the same is returned and you can bet when it comes back it is increased. Be on the lookout for a great treasure coming your way as long as you let it go and let the universe deal with it. The universe will do a much better job of retribution than we could ever possibly imagine.
The dealer was wrong,plain and simple. I deal with customers on a daily basis. If I said it, I did it. Lesson learned by me. It wasn’t your fault he had missed a coin in an “unsearched” bag. If he lied about this coin, what other devious things was he doing. The Bourse made a poor decision on his part. Why would he want a dishonest dealer giving his show a bad taste? You should have received the coin for the asking price.
I would have offered him 20 cents…double his asking price !!
you should name the dealer and the chairman in your article since you have the “power of the press”. a little bad publicity might change their viewpoint.
A deal’s a deal, 12 coins from the box for $1, that’s it! Sounds like this coin dealer has a future in politics.
i agree with comment 5 ,totally and you should post it on the net for others to see and send acopy of the post to him!
I agree with the 5th comment,also remember it used to be car salesmen,now it is coin dealers..I thought when they started slabbing,that was to weed out the crooks in the coin business.Bet this dealer is a seller at the big E____y auctions.What do you think?
Comment 8 is way off base by grouping all E____y coin auctions as shady. If i used your logic expressed here i could say that ALL coin dealers are un-ethical and immoral. With that i totally agree with Comment 2, what goes around comes around, he will get his eventually.
I have sold antiques and collectibles for 20 years at shows; etc. If I miss something-it’s on me. The customer gets a great deal-and usually I am the one that ends up winning anyway thru repeat business. They know I’m on the up and up-and they tell their friends! It’s a win-win situation! Cindi
I agree with number 10. Honesty, especially in the coin dealing business, pays off. The dealer was very short-sighted in not selling you the coin. He would have made a lot more in favorable publicity than the loss he would have incurred on the coin. What goes around DOES come around. Many dealers just don’t get that.
The dealer should honor the price; not just from an ethics standpoint, probably from a legal one as well.
Having said that, from a practical standpoint, you may have set the stage for this dealer’s close scrutiny by sitting at his table cherrypicking so dilligently. If the coins were such a good value, would it have killed you to buy 100 or so rather than be ultra-selective and try to spend 2 bucks after taking up some of his table for so long.
In conclusion, he was wrong, but you seem to be grudging about his need to make a living. (I know I may be way off with this thought, but that’s the way this came across to me.)
Your word is your bond, and ideally no price can be placed on it. For what may have been a $150 loss, he was willing to tarnish his own name by retracting his agreement with you and tarnish his image to you and whoever was there to witness it. Is that worth $150?
I believe he was way wrong. He should have given it to you for what he promised. I would have given him the money and snached it out of his hands. And said, Now are you going to buy it from me for $150.00? Some creeps have the nerve to do that, don’t worry karma will get him later.
#12. Has a point, you sat there at HIS booth/table, picked out BARGIN deals. You could have found more BARGIN coins!And then you got riped off as the dealer lied about the price he wanted for ALL the coins. Send the dude a bill for sorting out the EAGLE, I’m sure he made some $$ on it!
Shame shame on the dealer, just shows his real honesty. I cringe when I run in to individual like him. Low life should have stuck to his word.
This one is very simalar to the cherry picking joe blow that though he got robbed by your friend with his superior knowledge. I partialy agree with one poster about legality. He did make a verbal contract with you. It wouldn’t be worth small claims court. I wonder what Judge Judy would do in this case. If it were me as the dealer, i would have given you the coin and let you jump up and down like they do in the casinos, i bet that would have drawn a crowed quicly. Not to mention probably selling out my entire stock.
No doubt, he should have honored the deal. Comment #2 is truly where it’s at in that what comes around goes around, also known as ‘Karma’. The funny thing about Karma is ya just never know how it’s gonna strike or when! Staying on the positive side will always insure your best interests & positive return.
The two dealers that I keep going back to are the ones that treat me (and all their customers) fairly and honestly. Comment #2 rings of eternal truth, not to mention good business sense. When I make a major coin purchase, these two dealers are the only ones I deal with. Yes, you were right in your conviction that the two of you made a deal and that deal was not honored. You were cheated out of the time that you invested in looking through his pick-box.
This situation illustrates a point that every bourse chairperson needs to realize: The dealers are not his customers, the collectors are! If the people stop coming to the bourses and shows, the dealers will stop coming. The integrity and reputation of the bourse was tarnished by this dealer. Isn’t the collective integrity of the hobby worth more than a $75 table fee?
I think the dealer should have sold you the coin at the price he quoted you, especially after you double checked his asking price, which he confirmed while doing business with his other customers. It shows a great lack of integrity on his part. As far the integrity of the bourse, well it’s pretty much the same as that of the dealer…not very good. I think you are very kind not to reveal the identity of the dealer or the coin show. It might have been a great wake-up call to that dealer and others like him, to see his name mentioned in your article. Of course, that might have created other problems for you, which are too numerous to mention. A final thought: the next time you buy a grab box or grab bag with a great find, buy close to the whole lot of them and just tell the dealer how many you have. If he has to count out two or three hundred coins, or more he probably won’t want to take the time check them so closely. He’ll be too happy to make a large sale to worry about any coins he may have missed. After all, they’re supposed to be coins that he didn’t have the time to look at. Coins that weren’t worth much. Right? God bless you and please keep the articles coming. I enjoy them very much.
Ken Strawn
Portland, Oregon.
This sounds like the kind of guy that would knowingly buy stolen coins or pass off coins in “good” as “fine or better” to beginers.Wish they wore signs so I could avoid them.
This is simple. You should have been able to buy the coins at the price promised. Did you ever consider suing in small claims court?- I think you would have prevailed there and taught him a good lesson.
I think the dealer should have honored the price given in the pick box of .08 cents since that was were it was at. Then he could have cried as you walked out the door.
When the dealer allows a person to search the penny bag, yet requires the person return any to him/her considered to be more value than he intended, you are being hired to work for this dealer without pay.
Your time is probably worth as much or more than the time of the dealer and he/she should not expect you to provide him/her with profits at no cost to the dealer.
Since you spent the two hours searching, the dealer should not be permitted to retain any coin found in a grab box. Once the coin is in the box, it should be sold as advertised. Were I the dealer, I would not look at the coins I would only count to determine the sale price only. This way I would not know whether a coin is higher value than the advertised price.
Wow. I’ve always been a fan of pick boxes because they’re often the best way to find World Coins. Many times, I’ve found coins that are worth $10-30 that dealers simply didn’t have enough knowledge about to price accurately. If I ever dealt with a dealer who tried to do something like this (take back a price offer once I found something valuable) I’d make a major fuss. Why didn’t you post the dealer’s and bourse’s names? Remember, writing the truth is a perfect legal defense against libel.
KARMA is a very strong energy and the universe revolves around it. You both were GREEDY! Both of you created bad Karma for yourselves, and thus both totally lost out! After finding the 1857 Flying Eagle Cent, that would of told me I needed to buy the whole bag, there were many more ‘TREASURES’ to be found. After updating and upgrading my collection, I’d pass on the duplicate errors, varieties and other ‘treasures’ to local coin club members, young numismatists, fellow collectors, dealers or even ebay. I’d sell the rest in bulk. I then wouldn’t have all the pennies lying around the house. I’d then be lined up for another ‘GREAT’ find.
In my opinion, you were right and as I understand that in the U.K. any dealer who deliberately makes a low offer for a collection from a collector and purchases the collection can be prosecuted and jailed.
If a dealer accepts a poor offer from another dealer then the law will not apply as the dealer selling the collection will be expected to have knowledge of that is been sold.
The trading standards in the U.K. can give more information regarding this subject.
You could have avoid all of this for $1. Next time you should walk up and say. “I will take one dollars worth please” hand the dealer a $1 ask for a reciept. Then start picking, and if you find a 1909-s vdb, it is yours, you have already paid for it. NEVER let a dealer (or anyone else) look through your coins as your pick them. (maybe bring a plastic coin tube and drop them in as you go).
Where are you guys from. You have either been watching too much “My Name is Earl” or you are from California with your talking about Karma someday taking care of the this dishonest coin dealer? Where I come from we know who has control and we don’t call him Karma. We also know who will make the person honor the agreement right now.
That is us. We would not tolerate treatment like this. WE would have settled the problem right there by letting them know that they were going to abide by the agreement. If there was no change in their stance, pennies would still be flying. You wouldn’t have to withhold their names because it would be obvious by the look of their face. Right is right and it is time people stood up for it no matter what the consequences. Give out the guys name and address and I will go get your penny for you.
Here is a scenario which happened with a coin dealer in 2002 or 2003 at a mall in Peoria, IL. There was a sportscard and coin show at this mall, and I saw a coin dealer from Portage, IN which I had seen several times before in the past couple of years. This coin dealer would almost always bring the same overpriced and overgraded coins to the show, and display them in his cases. This coin dealer got a call on his cell phone. It was the woman who was working at the coin shop in Portage, IN while he was at the show. The woman had informed him that a gentleman had came in to the shop to sell several GSA Carson City silver dollars. The woman did not know what to pay for them, so she paid the gentleman $7.00 per coin!! This was the price for COMMON DATE silver dollars in 2002 or 2003!! The GSA CC’s were worth $100 A PIECE! When this coin dealer got off of his cell phone he chuckled, and stated to me, “Well, it’s too bad that she didn’t get the man’s name or phone number.” And then he continued “Oh well, there’s nothing I can do about it now,” he continued to chuckle in glee. Tell me how dishonest that is! Fact of the matter is, most coin dealers want to buy coins from people that know nothing about coins. These are the people who they want walking into their store, not the regular customers who get a Greysheet every week and know the value of everything. I would have to say most coin dealers are rogues and scalawags. I could never rip someone off. I have a conscience, and I want to sleep well at night.
That SOB would have been wearing that penny if he had done that to me. Just goes to show that for too many people these days its all about greed. Post his name and phone number and we will run him out of the business. Maybe you should have asked to look at it one last time and then swallowed it…….
I will have to side with you. He told you that they have never been searched. He lied from the start. I am a coin dealer here in Washington and we go through tons of coins. We don’t have “unsorted” bins. We have common wheat cent bins. The coins in those bins are worth the price on the bins. We sometimes miss a rpm or a dd but its part of the hunt of the common wheats. If there would have been a XF 1857 Flyer in the box I don’t think I could have sold it to you if it accidentally got in the common bin. Its not a common wheat. However if I said it was unsearched, it would have been yours in a heart beat. He lied to you. As for the chairman, he cant tell a man how to run his business. The dealer has a right to buy or sell what ever he wants and at what ever price. If a customer can say he will buy a coin for $5 and chooses not to pay for it, then the dealer can do the same thing with his products. What if he had his 5 year old grandson at the shop and he picked up the 1857 flyer and threw it in the common bucket? That’s just the same as a customer moving a $500 vase on to a discount table where all the vases are $5. The store wouldn’t sell it for $5. But the SOB lied to you from the begining and because of that you deserved the coin.
sorry to hear about you’re loss. maybe to avoid the situation completely, start purchasing the junk boxes all together and just sort at home. people get curious when they see someone spend so much time looking at change, and it’s the only way to avoid price-switching later
Poor, poor dealer, so poor he even couldn’t afford to keep his word. I’ve sold platinum thinking it was silver and told the buyer, “wow you did good getting that pin”. They said they would give it back as it was worth $500 not the $6 they paid. I said no a deal is a deal and we were both happy as the pin was free in a box I had bought and who hasn’t gotten great finds. I agree put out the name maybe we can send him a penny. What a lousy jerk and so was the bourse chairman.
The dealer is a liar. He said the coins were never searched.So the coin should be yours. Put the word out on this dealer so no one else gets the shaft.
You need to back this story up with the name of the dealer, coin show and bourseman. Otherwise, this story serves no other purpose than creating controversy so people will comment.
You should “name and shame” the lousy SOB!
I would like to know the show and dealer’s name. I feel we should be able to avoid these people. Dishonest comes in other forms like: improper grading, cheating on trades, intentional math errors, ripping off little old ladies on estates, etc. I know some of these and avoid them, and feel I need to warn my friends about them. I would have spent the day at his table telling everyone who stopped there that he was dishonest
Both the Dealer and the Chairman was dishonest. The Dealer actually lied when he said he did not search the bag. He should not offer a pick box if he is not going to honor the deal. Especially after he searched the bag. “A very dishonest dealer” We should all know who this guy is so we can avoid him.
when I went into the gas station this morning they had a periodical that had all of the local Mug shots that you could get for a dollar. I think that with the freedom of press this information should be able to be distributed publicly. they should also have the opportunity to defend them selvs though. Most of us can smell and when things (defences) smell bad we know its rottin. Unfortunately a lot of us here in the west have gotten away from the value of our “Word”. If you make a verbal deal you should live up to it. I would like to know ahead of time when going to a show far away who the good dealers are from the locals. It would be great to get the heads up from the local community is good or shady. We need to network and let the free market rule. If they become known as bad business people then they will go out of business.
“see how greedy some people are”
Always accuse others of what you yourself are doing.
You should have provided his name. Who would want to spend all their time doing business with someone who’s word is no good?
WOW, In the past few years my family has started collecting coins, and I wonder what this dealer would have said if you had a child with you–what a poor example and a lousy person. He should have sold you the coin without question, as he repeated the price to you several times, and offered the coins to you as unsearched. I too, have my own business (not coins or collectibles), but selling you that valuable penny for 8 cents would have been very cheap advertising for his shop. You should name this guy, and this show.
Well, that the dealer found it necessary to keep looking through the coins placed aside tells me he was getting edgy. At some point I would have ceased, like after finding the FE cent and simply added the total number of coins, paid and left. Yeah, I would not have told him of the great FE cent in the batch, it is his responsibility to know what he is selling.
He was crook and a poor excuse for a businessman … name him, his store and location. We need to educated about the bad dealers out there.
IMHO the story is implausible on so many levels. I truly respect and appreciate Susan Headley’s contributions and insights into coin collecting and I always look forward to her columns and have learned much. Given this, I was disappointed that Susan decided to use her time at a coin show sorting through “unsearched” pennies for hours. Apparently, Susan finds this to be good use of her time. I would love to know why anyone would spend time at a coin show looking through a coin box at what is in all likelihood average or below coins. Treasure hunting is exciting but spending time and money exploring for gold in a tapped out gold mine does not make any sense.
The fact that Susan found a valuable coin in a pick box is indeed a miracle but more than likely somebody mistakely tossed the coin in the bag. As it turned out she didn’t get the fruits of her labor. How that happened needs further explanation particularly from the show organizer.
If for whatever reason I decided to pick through a box and saw the seller inspecting my picks, I would immediately walk away or called the bourse over. That was a major red flag. I always vet a dealer before purchasing anything. I want to see what type of coins the seller is selling, noting the seller’s grading and prices. To me that can tell you volumes about the professionalism of the seller. Having learned my lesson, I now always ask the seller how they know the unsearched rolls of coins have never been searched, listening critically and skeptically at the answer.
I have to wonder why any dealer at a show where time and space is precious would offer a pick box of 5,000 coins! No one can look through 5,000 coins in less than 2 hours and after one person does it who would want to be the second or third person that day to search the coins? And what happens at the end of the show to the coins remaining? Would a professional and honest dealer take up table space to collect a few dollars on a pick box? On the other hand, selling coin rolls or bags is a fast and productive way to get rid of searched “unsearched” coins. I wonder how many of you have found an honest and reputable dealer who would claim the coins they are selling are unsearched.
I would have appreciated a story about the ethics of selling coins that are touted to be truly unsearched. And, is searching “unsearched” coins a coin collector’s best use of time and money, particularly at a show? Susan’s story was originally written two years ago. Unsearched coin rolls and lots are now going for at least twice as much. After you have searched through a few thousand coins at .10 per coin you have spent hundreds if not 1,000’s of dollars and possibly hundreds of hours. And for what – a one in a million shot at a key date in AG or G condition? That simply makes no sense to me. You could have spent the money and bought several nicely graded key date coins. No, I am not talking about a 1909S VDB – but we all know we would have a better chance of winning a big lottery than finding that coin among “unsearched” coins.
In my judgment, the situation was avoidable and should not have been pursued to begin with. The dealer wasted time and space and should have been at risk of being expelled from the show. The show organizers totally screwed up and compromised the integrity of the show and every dealer at the show. I doubt honest and reputable dealers will obtain space at shows when they find out that the show organizers knowingly allow dishonest dealers to operate. If you go to a show and are cheated or lied to by a dealer then I hope you blow the whistle on them by contacting the bourse. If the bourse does not rule on the customer’s side and immediately expel the dealer then I would expose the show organizer for sponsoring shows with dishonest dealers. If this happens to you, I suggest you write a letter to the editor of the local newspaper and report the story to national coin publications. You can be sure that collectors will stop attending shows where the organizer permits unethical dealers. I really hope that Susan called out the show organizers in the media and to the trade. I want to know who the show organizer was in this case. They totally dropped the ball. I will never attend one of their shows. It should be the responsibility of the show organizers to require every dealer who rents a space to agree to act ethically at all times or risk immediate and permanent expulsion from their shows. This is how you drive unethical dealers and show organizers out of business, reward professional and ethical dealers and protect the collector.
How neat that dealer has it. Won’t take the time and effort to go through his pile of coins to check for good dates. Just let customers do it for him! Then they find the good ones and he, alone, benefits from their work. Like having an unpaid assistant working for free. Such a deal!
These dealers need to be known. You should have named them. By naming them, and telling the story as it really happened, without anger, without name-calling, you will not have to worry about him taking action against you. You would just be saying you thought you were not treated well. People are afraid to do so, fearing action against them. But, they shouldn’t. Name the names for the rest of us to know so we will never deal with such characters.
I regularly go to a coin jewelry store and look through his junk silver cans. the first day he advised me he had the right to take out any key dates i find and not sell at junk silver price. I agreed. To me it is an easy way fro the customers to search his stock for him, but i do get hole fillers out of it. So i agree to his terms. but the point is that he did tell me in advance of the condition.
Totally dishonest.Name and shame the bastard.
Of course he should have let you buy it. Thats why they are search by the buyer, in hopes of finding a good coin. I would turn him into the BBB if possible
I think you could have reported him to the Better Business Beurrow along with the Promoter. This Dealer gives Dealers a bad Rap.
Every time I read of a coin Dealer getting all his coins stolen from the motel or his car, I rejoice. Karma has struck. I would gladly go to shows that coin dealers heads on sticks entering the event. Only thing worse that a Greasy thieving POS Greedy coin dealer is his Wife…. he married the Lying SOB.
Wow, what a lucky lady you are! True, you found out too late that he was dishonest. His comments after your search told you HOW dishonest he is. Some people are honest, some are not. If you had only found some mildly interesting coins, you wouldn’t have known his true nature and might have bought other things from him. Instead, you uncovered a real stinker, for free.
Technically, he should have just charged you the amount posted. But really, you were going to give him $2.40 after two hours of looking? Can he really feed his family on that?
One easy way to handle this is to not make such a big deal out of it. Getting your ‘loop’ out for a bunch of pennies seems a little obsessive. 30 min tops and you wouldn’t have had a problem.
Next time, just grab a handfull of “non-worthy” coins and put them in a big pile. Spend 10.00 and the “big pile” won’t be inspected so thoroughly. He’ll just want you out of his booth.
To everyone who says you should “name the seller” isn’t the answer. Being a smarter buyer is.
Just don’t act like you are buying a yacht for a buck and pointing it out to him. Then, the dealer won’t second guess his table. You’re the one raising suspicion, not him. He had a right to inspect those coins.
(Disclaimer: I am 110% new at this and have no idea about coin dealer-seller ethics. I read this column to get ideas)
One more thing. I have never been to a coin show in my life. Just in case someone thinks I “know the dealer” or whatever.
It was the dealer’s incompetent mistake–he put the coin in the box and he knew it. Didn’t he say that all coins in the box were unsearched?
However, you also made a mistake–you let him see the coin. I would have done all I could to keep him from seeing it.
The coin dealer should honor is WORD. He knows and watching you digging real hard to find a diamond or a very good find on his trash of coin. Now I could easily say the dealer as NO HEART at ALL for you…
Sorry TRY YOUR LUCK next time…Honest Lady!
Expose the CROOKS!!!!!!!!!!!!!! So We Will Not Give Them ANY Of Our Business. They are probably members of the Local Liars Club
“Technically, he should have just charged you the amount posted. But really, you were going to give him $2.40 after two hours of looking? Can he really feed his family on that?”
This statement is the crux of the matter, although the logic is not consistent. The two hours were Susan’s two hours of labor, not the dealers. As Susan performed the labor intensive job of searching (hence one reason the coins are being sold cheaply, as little or no time invested in them)in effect the dealer stole her time (labor). Time spent can never be recovered. If the dealer was kept the coin he owed her for her labor. As my earning average well over $100 per hour my bill for the same amount of time would have exceeded the value of the coin.
the penny would be yours,even if he did not find it in his search,which made it a dubble lie on his part,which was so much for a penny and being unsearched.
I say he should have given it to you. If all coin dealers make this kind of mistake and act like this we might as well not buy from them anymore unless we absolutly trust them
I was always told your only as good as your word and apparantly the dealers word isnt worth well you fill in the blank the dealer should have at least let you have the rest of the coins for your time spent looking
The dealer put out the search box for people sit there and search all day. No collector pays 10c for 3c wheats. Logically you’d search to find ones worth more. You could have picked out your FE, handed the dealer a dollar or 5 dollars, and told him to keep the change while showing him you had 1 coin. You wanted him to see the FE to satisfy your “gotcha” fix.