eBay to Implement Sweeping New Slabs Policy?
Saturday September 15, 2007
Note: The changes noted below have been confirmed and posted to eBay's site on the Coin Sellers rules page (click the link to "show" "Some Examples.")
There has been a rumor swirling around the coin collecting discussion boards claiming that eBay is about to implement sweeping policy changes in the Coins categories. This rumor claims that eBay is only recognizing a few top grading services, including NGC, NCS, PCGS, ANACS, and ICG. This new policy is variously (according to assorted rumors) already in effect, going into effect Sept. 17, 2007, or going into effect Oct. 1, 2007. I have tried contacting eBay three times through three different channels since this rumor broke and the best I've been able to glean from them by way of confirmation is this minimalist statement:
"Our current policy is currently slated to change in regards to graded coins. This policy will be changing on Oct 1. At that time our site will be updated with the specifics of this change. You can also look for updates to the policy on our announcement boards."
The statement above was signed by an eBay Support representative. Their media relations office hasn't returned my calls, and an inquiry made by a friend who is a "Gold Power Seller" (and who therefore has privileged access to eBay customer support via telephone) got a similar verbal response ("When something is ready to be made public, it will be posted in the appropriate places on our site.") This is really frustrating to me, because eBay's media relations office is usually a bit more responsive than they're being about this issue.
Here's what's being said on the coin collecting discussion boards:
Jon Lerner, from Scarsdale Coin, posted this on the Collector's Universe (CU) forum on Wednesday, Sep. 12, 2007:
"Dear Jon,
Thank you for writing eBay in regard to our policies concerning the sale of coins.
You are indeed correct that our policies will be changing shortly. On September 17th our policy page regarding the sale of coins and currency will be updated to include the following information.
When listing a certified coin, the coin must be certified by one of the following authorized grading companies:
* Numismatic Guaranty Corporation (NGC)
* Numismatic Conservation Services (NCS)
* Professional Coin Grading Service (PCGS)
* Independent Coin Grading (ICG)
* ANACS"
Jon's post of the eBay message goes on to explain that if the coin is not graded by one of the five approved entities, it will be considered to be a raw (ungraded) coin, even if it's in another company's holder. Unless the coin is in one of the five approved slabs, sellers will not be able to give the numeric grade in the auction title. In addition, in neither the title or description can sellers assert a value for the coin or reference any coin value guides. Sellers can't even mention who the coin is slabbed by (if I'm reading this correctly.) The entire text of Jon's post can be found in this CU thread about eBay closing off third party grading services. Near the end of the eBay message Jon quotes, eBay says this:
"As of this time the policy is not being enforced and enforcement may not be immediate as we work to make sure everything is working correctly."
However, earlier this evening, John P. Sullivan of Sullivan Numismatics posted this message about eBay's new coin policy to another public coin collecting forum, the Error Coin Information Exchange on YahooGroups. (Note: You have to be a member of the Error Coin Information Exchange group to read the message via the link provided, but if you collect error coins, I recommend joining.)
"I am absolutely furious at eBay!!! Did anyone know that eBay has a policy which prohibits using a numerical grade in the title for a raw coin auction!?!? If the coin is not slabbed, you are not allowed to assign a numerical grade to the title of the auction. This is probably the dumbest and most retarded things I have ever heard eBay do, and I have to question whether this will even allow me to continue selling raw coin on eBay! Totally insane, and I wrote a long e-mail to eBay telling them that. I had (8) auctions end on eBay, with buyers for (7) of them, and eBay deleted them from their system. They didn't delete any of the other 300-400 auctions in my store which are not ended but which also violate this policy, but they went and deleted the (7) which had in fact already sold! Has anyone else had this happen?"
It seems that despite what eBay told Jon Lerner, Jon Sullivan has already suffered sanctions. This, despite what eBay told me about an Oct. 1 implementation date.
The bottom line at this time is that I really must still consider much of this information to be unconfirmed rumor, since I can't get anybody at eBay to actually confirm it. Naturally, certain people are very upset that most third party slabs are reportedly being relegated to the "meaningless" status. However, if this actually becomes eBay policy, it is a huge boon to the integrity and safety of the eBay coins marketplace, even as challengers such as Collectica.com nip at eBay's heels on marketplace integrity issues. One of my all-time biggest pet peeves is the graded coin value fraud. This new policy would largely eliminate this rampant abuse, although I suppose you'll still have the scammers who will try to claim that a coin in an ANACS slab is worth PCGS prices.
What do you think about this proposed change to the eBay Coins category? Is is about time? Or is it going too far overboard? Share your opinion via the Comments link below.
There has been a rumor swirling around the coin collecting discussion boards claiming that eBay is about to implement sweeping policy changes in the Coins categories. This rumor claims that eBay is only recognizing a few top grading services, including NGC, NCS, PCGS, ANACS, and ICG. This new policy is variously (according to assorted rumors) already in effect, going into effect Sept. 17, 2007, or going into effect Oct. 1, 2007. I have tried contacting eBay three times through three different channels since this rumor broke and the best I've been able to glean from them by way of confirmation is this minimalist statement:
"Our current policy is currently slated to change in regards to graded coins. This policy will be changing on Oct 1. At that time our site will be updated with the specifics of this change. You can also look for updates to the policy on our announcement boards."
The statement above was signed by an eBay Support representative. Their media relations office hasn't returned my calls, and an inquiry made by a friend who is a "Gold Power Seller" (and who therefore has privileged access to eBay customer support via telephone) got a similar verbal response ("When something is ready to be made public, it will be posted in the appropriate places on our site.") This is really frustrating to me, because eBay's media relations office is usually a bit more responsive than they're being about this issue.
Here's what's being said on the coin collecting discussion boards:
Jon Lerner, from Scarsdale Coin, posted this on the Collector's Universe (CU) forum on Wednesday, Sep. 12, 2007:
"Dear Jon,
Thank you for writing eBay in regard to our policies concerning the sale of coins.
You are indeed correct that our policies will be changing shortly. On September 17th our policy page regarding the sale of coins and currency will be updated to include the following information.
When listing a certified coin, the coin must be certified by one of the following authorized grading companies:
* Numismatic Guaranty Corporation (NGC)
* Numismatic Conservation Services (NCS)
* Professional Coin Grading Service (PCGS)
* Independent Coin Grading (ICG)
* ANACS"
Jon's post of the eBay message goes on to explain that if the coin is not graded by one of the five approved entities, it will be considered to be a raw (ungraded) coin, even if it's in another company's holder. Unless the coin is in one of the five approved slabs, sellers will not be able to give the numeric grade in the auction title. In addition, in neither the title or description can sellers assert a value for the coin or reference any coin value guides. Sellers can't even mention who the coin is slabbed by (if I'm reading this correctly.) The entire text of Jon's post can be found in this CU thread about eBay closing off third party grading services. Near the end of the eBay message Jon quotes, eBay says this:
"As of this time the policy is not being enforced and enforcement may not be immediate as we work to make sure everything is working correctly."
However, earlier this evening, John P. Sullivan of Sullivan Numismatics posted this message about eBay's new coin policy to another public coin collecting forum, the Error Coin Information Exchange on YahooGroups. (Note: You have to be a member of the Error Coin Information Exchange group to read the message via the link provided, but if you collect error coins, I recommend joining.)
"I am absolutely furious at eBay!!! Did anyone know that eBay has a policy which prohibits using a numerical grade in the title for a raw coin auction!?!? If the coin is not slabbed, you are not allowed to assign a numerical grade to the title of the auction. This is probably the dumbest and most retarded things I have ever heard eBay do, and I have to question whether this will even allow me to continue selling raw coin on eBay! Totally insane, and I wrote a long e-mail to eBay telling them that. I had (8) auctions end on eBay, with buyers for (7) of them, and eBay deleted them from their system. They didn't delete any of the other 300-400 auctions in my store which are not ended but which also violate this policy, but they went and deleted the (7) which had in fact already sold! Has anyone else had this happen?"
It seems that despite what eBay told Jon Lerner, Jon Sullivan has already suffered sanctions. This, despite what eBay told me about an Oct. 1 implementation date.
The bottom line at this time is that I really must still consider much of this information to be unconfirmed rumor, since I can't get anybody at eBay to actually confirm it. Naturally, certain people are very upset that most third party slabs are reportedly being relegated to the "meaningless" status. However, if this actually becomes eBay policy, it is a huge boon to the integrity and safety of the eBay coins marketplace, even as challengers such as Collectica.com nip at eBay's heels on marketplace integrity issues. One of my all-time biggest pet peeves is the graded coin value fraud. This new policy would largely eliminate this rampant abuse, although I suppose you'll still have the scammers who will try to claim that a coin in an ANACS slab is worth PCGS prices.
What do you think about this proposed change to the eBay Coins category? Is is about time? Or is it going too far overboard? Share your opinion via the Comments link below.
Comments
I think that it it’s a great idea. The only people that will object are those sellers that have been over grading their coins all along. As a buyer, now I’m confident that will get the grade of coin what I’m bidding on.
It’s a move in the right direction for eBay. Granted you’ll always have your scammers and frauds, it may help to better educate the buyer as a whole. As always the buyer should do their research regarding both the item & the seller, prior to bidding, no matter what the item is!
I think it’s a wonderful move on eBay’s part! I’ve been continually peeved at seeing certain other dealers who show an obvious F-VF coin and claim (or suggest) that it’s an MS-66 or higher. Someone has to hold some of these dealers accountable. It’s obvious some of them will do or say anything hoping to reel in an uneducated buyer. There are some very honest dealers but you have to be very careful and educate yourself on the true value of these coins to tell the honest ones from the scam artists.
DEFINITELY A STEP IN THE RIGHT DIRECTION. MY PEEVE IS THAT REPLICA COINS ARE LISTED WITH THE GENUINE ONES. THEY SHOUD HAVE THEIR OWN CATEGORY. MAYBE THE PERSON SELLING THESE IS VERY HONEST. HOWEVER WHAT HAPPENS TO THE COINS WHEN BOUGHT AND SOLD AS THE REAL THING. REPLICA’S SHOULD HAVE REPLICA PLAINLY MARKED AS SUCH.
This is a good move for collectors, and good for eBay’s credibility as well.
Great move by eBay. With rare exception, seller’s of off-brand slabs have one objective in mind - to rip off uneducated buyers.
Julian Leidman one of PCGS Board Experts States this in his Bio on the PCGS web site.
This Is the exact repeat…
I am not a proponent of third party grading, in it’s current stage of development. The main flaw and the reson that I do not participatein the encapsulation of numismatic idems, is the Grading lack’s Consistency!!!!
As I have many PCGS graded coins. And even with the ones that I have the grading is not consistant. I have twin 1958 Franklin Proof half’s One has a nick on the forehead and one is clean..both graded at PF 66 PCGS One is a cameo and one is not. They both where graded the same day. I have 90 1954 to 1964 cameos graded by PCGS and have been collecting coins for 26+ years, I look at one of my graded coins and compare. Most dealers do not see the grading to have any solid standards..
“Russ James” makes a valid point about top-tier grading companies lacking consistent grading standards not only from one firm to another, but even within their own grading staffs.
Although a PCI-graded coin, for example, will no longer be considered a “certified” coin under eBay’s upcoming policy change, coins MIS-GRADED by, say, NGC or PCGS will. With no intent of discrediting or questioning the ethics of the Sellers, I cite two relevant examples I came across just yesterday:
1) eBay Item number: 170150854221
2) eBay Item number: 170150854234
Both of these two 1793 Large Cents are, in my experienced opinion, “unjustly” certified and numerically graded in older PCGS slabs.
Just as eBay has changing policies so, too, does PCGS. Under today’s PCGS standards neither of these coins would have been slabbed due to such adjectival modifiers found on in the actual descriptions of these coins like “Porosity”, “Granular surface” and “Pitting”. Instead, both coins would be more appropriately found in “Guaranteed Authentic Only” or “Details”-qualified slabs from NCS or ANACS.
With countless numbers of coins falling into this category, how can eBay justify condemning a LEGITAMENT (non-”self-slabbed”), lower-tier grading service’s practices and opinions while still allowing more renowned companies to get away with the very inconsistency causing that condemnation?
John P. Sullivan of Sullivan Numismatics quote from article.What I’m reading, if correct is that they are saying in the title and nothing about the sizzle in the description.
“I am absolutely furious at eBay!!! Did anyone know that eBay has a policy which prohibits using a numerical grade in the title for a raw coin auction!?!? If the coin is not slabbed, you are not allowed to assign a numerical grade to the title of the auction.”
I think this is the best thing ebay has ever done for the coin collector. Maybe now buyers will stop getting ripped off by scammers selling over graded coins in “junk” holders and compairing them to the 4 major grading companies. Ebay has taken a step in the right direction at last.
Below is a letter I received from Centsles, one of the largest EBay dealers of 3rd party graded coins, along with my response.
________________________________________
From: Centsles Inc. [mailto:centsles@gte.net]
Sent: Tuesday, October 09, 2007 3:39 PM
To: xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: Regarding eBay Listing Changes
October 9, 2007
To: The Customers of Centsles
From: Robert Johnson, Owner, Centsles, Inc.
Many of you have e-mailed us at Centsles regarding the sudden change in the way our coins are listed for auction. Due to a recent eBay decision, eBay sellers are limited in the information that can be used in the title and description for some coin auction postings. We have been advised that this is an effort by eBay to reduce fraud and fraudulent listings. The following link will direct you to their new coin selling policy:
http://pages.ebay.com/help/policies/selling-coins.html
As you can see under the title Some Examples, we are no longer allowed to list the certification (grading) company name, or the grade assigned, in the title or the description of the auction listing for any coins not graded and encapsulated by PCGS, NGC, NCS (owned by NGC), ICG and/or ANACS. We will still be able to list coins not graded by those 5 companies mentioned in the policy, but they will now be considered by eBay as raw/uncertified. This policy is now being enforced as of October 1, 2007.
Susan McMillan, American Numismatic Association (ANA) Consumer Awareness Coordinator has stated in the ANA press release of September 18, 2007:
In order for consumer fraud to occur, three elements must be present: a person’s
desire, ability and opportunity to commit the fraud, said ANA Consumer Awareness
Coordinator Susan McMillan, We cannot control a person’s desire or ability, but we
can try to remove the opportunity.?
In our opinion, her statement implies that Centsles and those dealing in coins not certified by the 5 authorized companies are committing fraud. Also in our opinion, it implies that collectors and resellers of coins purchased from Centsles, and other dealers, are also committing fraud. As stated within this press release, those representing the ANA, applaud and support this decision as an improvement by eBay to protect you, the consumer, from yourself. A link to the ANA statement has been provided below for your additional clarification. Also keep in mind while reading, ANA President, Mr. Stuppler (eBay id verypq ) and ANA Acting Executive Director, Mr. Kenneth Hallenbeck (eBay id Hallenbeckcoins), both quoted in the ANA statement, are eBay Powersellers who only sell coins certified by NGC, PCGS, ANACS & ICG coins.
http://www.money.org/AM/Template.cfm?Section=Home&Template=/CM/ContentDisplay.cfm&ContentID=11936
In fact, the value of the coins certified by those five approved grading companies could now have the potential to have an artificially inflated cost due to the decrease in supply of available alternatives.
While we strongly disagree with eBay’s new policy, we are making every effort to comply. However, it is our opinion that this policy may in fact violate antitrust laws. If you feel the same, we strongly encourage you to do some research into this question, and if convinced, contact the United States Department of Justice (DOJ). We are supplying the following link regarding the antitrust laws found at the Department of Justice website:
http://www.usdoj.gov/atr/contact/newcase.htm
It may interest you to know that some of the unauthorized grading services, eBay sellers and consumers, such as yourself, have made the effort and have already contacted the Department of Justice regarding eBay’s policy. The more people to protest eBay’s policy to the DOJ the stronger the demand for an investigation into the overall impact this policy will have.
If you do not feel as strongly about this as an antitrust issue, but still feel this policy is in some way unfair and unjust, please contact eBay to make your statement at: http://pages.ebay.com/help/newtoebay/questions/contact-support.html
We thank you, our customers, for your continued confidence in and support of Centsles as an eBay Powerseller!
……………………………….
My response:
I am afraid to say that this is a problem of your own making. A large proportion of the coins you sell are “certified” by NNC, a company that the last I checked offers no guarantee of the accuracy of its grading. At one time they did not even have a web site where one could submit a coin for grading, and almost all the NNC graded coins were being sold through your web site. I have often wondered if your company slabs these coins yourself, or if not what percentage of their business comes from your company. I am sure quite high.
Whether you do or not is somewhat beside the point. You clearly run a successful business, and are no fool. You submit coins for certification to NNC because their grading standards are lax compared to those of NGC, PCGS, ANACS, and ICG. This is undeniable. I just looked through the Ebay completed listings for NNC graded coins and found things like this: 1896 Morgan, NNC MS67. PCGS price: $6000. Ebay selling price: $51, which would translate to about MS64. 1912 half eagle, NNC MS63: PCGS price: $3250. One sold at Heritage on 9/28/2007 for $2530. Ebay selling price: $295. Which is the Heritage selling price for AU55 cleaned. If NNC had as rigorous grading standards as PCGS and NGC, why would anyone submit their coins there, knowing that NNC graded coins sell for a fraction of their value? Why don’t dealers snap them up so they can cross them over to PCGS or NGC holders for an 800% profit?
I know, I know, all grading is subjective. You should buy the coin, not the holder. Your photos, however, feature the NNC holder much more prominently than the coin. I defy anyone to accurately differentiate an AU55 from an MS63 based on your photos.
So no, I will not be sending a letter to Ebay suggesting they change their policy. Bogus grading companies like NNC are a scourge on the coin collecting hobby. They dupe unsophisticated collectors and are ignored anyone with a modicum of experience. I have bought NNC graded coins from you not because of their certification but despite it. You would do us all a favor if you submitted your coins to reputable companies or sold them as uncertified.
Oh, and being a powerseller does not imply that you are at all ethical. I recall a man named Robert Brennan who ran First Jersey Securities. There were fancy TV ads of him boarding helicopters and asking people “come grow with us”. He sold a whole lot of penny stocks, more than anyone. Fraudulently inflated their prices first. I wonder, is he out of jail yet?
gdnp
I have sold coins on eBay for over 4 years and have been in good standing.
I have never had a problem and helped 10 or so people at our ward start
selling on eBay to help with raising family costs. Now it feels like i have
a target on my back. It all started in December when 1500 of my store
listing where pulled. Crazy reasons like the price of the coin showed on
the holder, or we listed a grade like Fine-12, or that PCI slabs or ICCS
holders for Canadian coins were counterfiet, etc. A coin dealer had told me
that I was a crook because only PCGS coins are good, and I was defrauding
people by grading my own coins.
Well him and a few other Nasty power sellers decided to gang up on me and
make 1 week of my life a living hell. i guess i broke every law in the book!
if you don’t know this eBay dose not moneter there site, only the other
users. I was told they don’t have the staff or the time so they rely on you
and me to turn problems in, plus they dont have any numismatics on there
staff. Well they went though my auction with a fine tooth comb.
My auctions were ended, then I would relist because I didnt do anything
wrong. I would re list — they would report — i lost my listings– over
and over. . at the time this was going on i never really knew what i had
done until 1 power seller stood up for me and emailed to help me, he
informed me these same people did the same to him. All the time this was
going on I received nasty emails which I sent to ebay trust and safety they
never did a thing they allowed all of this to go on until this 1 person
stood up for me and he and a lot of sellers wrote emails telling eBay they
where disgusted with them to allow this to go on and they needed to do
something. I receive an email from this kind man telling me it was over and
what had happened, i broke down in tears.. How can a company allow this to
go on, not 1 person in those nasty Power Sellers had any harm to them from
my coins and actually didn’t even by anything from me.
Ok now the i was kicked of for 2 weeks for repeatedly ignoring the rules.
As where 2 of my customers for shill bidding. I have reg customers who buy
from me all of the time any way most of them are in my church ward because
I was the one who told them about coins and ebay!! One lives here in Roy
and another in near bye Ogden. Ebay say i am shill and take all my coins
and store listings down, in the email received they tell me i can only list
buy now so here is my question. If my coins were counterfiet and my bidders
shill, but why can I list them in my store items at buy now! If i can list
in my store for that 2 weeks why did they end them? So eBay pockets 600.00
dollars to tell us we can re list them and pay more money. Now i have helped
both of these sell on eBay and i have helped them get started selling on
eBay, I got to know them because they brought we got talking they wanted to
learn i helped, just because they know me if they bid they buy they win most
of there auctions i have never done a file back ever on either 1 but eBay
says we bidding items up, both of them tried to call eBay to and emails no 1
ever contacted them. This is bull when is this going to stop. I have never
done what they accused me of!
Now the account issue, 2 weeks are up and i am now allowed to list auction
format again. i log into my account to day and there is still a ban on my
listings. So i contact eBay and there live chat person say all this
unrespnsive stuff make me think I am wasiting my time typing to a bott. So
I call my son the computer wiz at Weber state U who takes computers and we
do cookie removal and still banned from listing! My son says its eBay and
not me, So i contact them again they tell me this time i need to contact e
bays trust and safety, they will need to look into the problem when i start
asking questions he tell me the pictures of the removed store items still
have prices written on the cardboard. BUT I NEVER RELISTED ANY OF THE STORE
ITEMS!!! so i ask for the direct phone number to ebay’s representatives in
the Coin Watch done by the A.N.A. They say they don’t have it but if they
did it was confidential because they didnt want the Coin Watch volunteers to
be harassed. WHAT DO THEY CALL WHAT THEY DID TO ME!!!!!
I give up, i’am done — when will these people be held accountable for the
crap they keep pulling, i agree with the class action law suite from
centsles and PCI. I don’t care if i get a penny as long as eBay gets
theres. Now ebay was found to have all these fake listings…but..but…it
is just a test, just a mistake, just being misunderstood. Were is the
tolerance for the sellers who are accused of selling counterfiets with no
proof, accused of being shill with no proof, having acutions and THEY WHOLE
LIFE destroyed by flase accusations from jealous sellers WITH NO PROOF????
This needs to be repoted in the Press. eBay does not like it when they look
bad, we need to tell our storys i’am telling you things will change! Someone
out there must know a lawyer or a reporter! ebay had there last penny from
me!!
I feel like any comment I make right now would be dwarfed by the last 2 significantly.
But all I have to say is that as a buyer of coins, this is definitely a step in the right direction for all coin auctions.
I wrote to ebay when this slab thing started.
I asked them a question. They never replied.
I asked them…”If I can’t say PCI MS65 in my title or description, my picture shows that it was certified by PCI and was graded MS65.”
So I asked them what was next. Are they going to start editing our pictures?
And now, you can’t accept checks or money orders anymore. They said they had a lot of problems with them.
Funny, I was selling coins for 10 years. Accepting checks and money orders. I never ONCE had any problem.
So, now I can’t buy or sell, unless I get Paypal.
And I had them a long time ago and was very unhappy with their service, and their charges.
So, I never used my account. Maybe it’s still there, but it goes unused.
Now, I don’t spend much money on coins. Nor do I sell them.
My collecting days are basically over. It was fun. Now, onto other things.